Beware of FLAT RATE dialers

[terminator]

Beware of FLAT RATE dialers, Some will lead you to beleive you will be paid the same amount no matter how many minutes you send. This is false.If you are a webmaster who has allot of minutes that come from low rate countries, no one can afford to pay you 35-37 cents per minute for these minutes when they only get paid 2 cents for them.

regards
bruce
dialer ********

[Shannon]

Whats there to be aware of? You be straight up from front with everyone and tell them if they get over 30% of their minutes from the high-risk countries. You will then pay them via an agreed rate card.

Which is rarely an issue - It literally effects 1% or so of all accounts. So, it may be 1 in 100 accounts this besomes an issue with. Not near enough to post something as it's a new revelation.

Best Of Luck http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[terminator]

shannon you are a flat rate reseller.
you cannot offer the world to a webmaster at your 35cent rate. some webmasters have a shit load of turkey . can you offer them 35 for that? no you can't. you offer $0 for turkey. whilst we offer $$$ for turkey.
so whats sounds more logical to a webmaster??

good luck to you. http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[terminator]

one more thing...
http://www.dialerniches.com/

your site has some missleading things on it.
1)"Access to over 27,000 phonelines".
sure ya do! rofl
gib plus niteline plus dialer k*ing wouldn't have even have that many!!!! lol

2) "We Pay $0.37 World Wide In Over 200 Countries!" really?? i wanna join!!! rofl.

your saying you pay .37 for china, taiwan,turkey,arabia,indonesia??? there is only 200 countreis in the world!!!! rofl

best of luck with josh's telco dialer i hope they pay ya all! http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[xswealth]

Terminator thanks for bringing attention to the text you copied from the rates page:

http://www.xswealth.com/dialer.html

http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[terminator]

no problem xswealth.
i think you said it very well!!!!

http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[xswealth]

Thanks

Truth hurts sometimes ;-)

[terminator]

shannon will learn that the k*ng knows better.

it is so funny to watch some webmasters leave one dialer company and go to another like mexican jumping beans. these are the ones that make fuck all anyway and cause the biggest amount of grief. i had one webmaster that took up 6hours of my time and opened 100 accounts. he was only doing 8mins a day!!!
its the webmasters who are in it for the long term and stable that are successful. sticking to the one program. "if it aint broke don't fix"
they should go by that theory, because it works!

bruce
dialerk*ng.com

[Shannon]

terminator - You did'nt seem to do much looking around. On our faq's page as well on tos page it sais:

"If you happen to be in the 1% bracket that get over 30% of you're minutes from high-risk countries such as Turkey, Russia, Poland, Italy etc... We will contact you shortly upon you signing up to work out a special rate card for you and please feel free to contact us if you feel you are in this 1% high-risk bracket."

I like how you only pick a snippet of a paragraph and attempt to make a point on it.

And yes, we do pay $0.37 on all countries. I agree, no one can pay $0.37 on an account that slams you with over 30% or so with minutes from high-risk countries. Thats why I am stright forward about it and have it twice on my site.

And as I said before, this literally only affects 1% or so of accounts. And on occassion when this does happen, we shoot them a rate card as soon as we notice and since we check all accounts daily - No surprises or short checks!

Best Of Luck http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[daveknell]

Shannon - they're not "high risk" countries, merely ones where you've not got a decent local or international premium rate route to run the traffic down. To illustrate, our current route for Turkey gives us guaranteed payment (low risk) at a low rate; our domestic US 1-900 route is subject to the usual chargeback nonsense (high risk) but notionally pays a far higher rate.

Question: when you get a customer who sends the bulk of their traffic from high rate countries (like the UK and Germany), do you increase their payouts accordingly??

I guess you've outlined the problem with flat-rate diallers - you pay 37c/min on all countries, some of the time. Obviously top marks to you for being upfront with your customers about this, but, in the long run, isn't it the case that both you and your customers are better off with a ratecard giving rates for each originating country?

Dave

[basschick]

what terminator and daveknell aren't pointing out is that the reason the flat-rate companies can pay the flat rate is that they make enough more on the higher rate countries to balance it out usually.

no problem there - everyone has to make money or they wouldn't bother having affiliate programs.

sure, they could pay us more per higher paying country. but i'm happiest receiving the flat rate. it works for me.

[Shannon]

daveknell - It's a very minimal issue, I feel anything that affects 1% or so of accounts is not a reason not to offer webmasters a flat rate. Though it is a big enough issue to point it out on our site.

Until recently and for a year or so we always offered a rate card, versus a flat rate. When we moved over to Telco we sent an e-mail out to a few hundred webmasters - And out of the ones that replied, 90% or so said that they would rather be paid a flat rate. So, since thats what they wanted - Thats what we gave them. Though we do have a small number of webmasters still on the rate card style payments. Why? Because thats what they wanted, so thats what we gave them.

Of course no one can pay $0.37 on a shit load of Turkey minutes alone. And whats the difference between high-risk and low paying? Is'nt it the same thing - The collection rate is so low on the collection side of it that that's why it only pay's a guaranteed $0.02 It pays that low cause it's high-risk on the collection side of it.

If I am wrong, please correct me?

Best Of Luck http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[daveknell]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shannon:

Of course no one can pay $0.37 on a shit load of Turkey minutes alone. And whats the difference between high-risk and low paying? Is'nt it the same thing - The collection rate is so low on the collection side of it that that's why it only pay's a guaranteed $0.02 It pays that low cause it's high-risk on the collection side of it.

If I am wrong, please correct me?
</font>

OK, I will. The UK cellular number range which both Telco and we use for "other countries" (incl. Turkey) where we've no better option gives us *guaranteed* payment. On every minute. No collection problems, no chargebacks, no nothing. Unless there's fraud involved and, from experience, it would have to be a *huge* amount to get anyone's attention. However, it's a low rate, which is why we pay about $0.08/minute on it. Guaranteed.

That's a low-paying route. High risk is the US (ask Verity..)

Dave

[Shannon]

But is'nt that why it pays so little, rather it be guaranteed or not?

Why do you feel it pays so little? Cause it's high risk on the collection side of it, not on your end of it. Hence, there being such a risk or low collection of funds for the minutes being generated from countries such as Turkey. On their end "the collection end of it - that thats why they pay next to nothing on it to your end.

No matter how you word it, its all the same thing in the end. And thats why they dont pay much. Would that not be a fair statement?

[daveknell]

Er, I'm not sure it is. The reason for the outpayment being what it is is that that's the rate which has been negotiated between BT and the other carriers in the UK, no doubt with Oftel's helping hand.

I guess that, in the end, it's a low rate because we have a fairly free market in telecommunications in the UK, making it a low cost environment.

Dave

[terminator]

i think as a network owner, flat rate is worse than variable.
for example if you pay a webmaster 37cent flat for usa/uk/australia and i pay 75cents for those (which i do)then that is double!!!

Any webmaster that can do math can see that they will make a shit load more from a non flat dialer.


we could very easily launch a flat rate dialer. Don't you think that we have already thought of doing one??
but it would be ripping off the resellers and webmasters by giving them only 40cents when they could make nearly double. So we decided to offer the bigger rates per country.

when i see some resellers offering .35-.40 cents flat, i shake my head, because i know that if they offered much better rates they would get a shit load more webmasters joining and make more $$$$$. No webmaster with any brains wants to make .35-.40 on usa/uk/australia when they can make 60-75 cents.

regards
bruce
dialerk*ng.com

[basschick]

terminator, i tried your dialer for a few days and didn't make any minutes. i put a telco dialer in the same place and started to see minutes immediately.

i don't believe you're cheating on minutes, but everyone has something that works better for them. i got my best minutes from the old niteline u.s. termination point - even though a lot of people say they did much better with gib.

[basschick]

another thought - you offer one kind of content. i need a shemale-only and a gay-only dialer, as well as a straight dialer, so it's great that someone has this content for those of us that need it.

[Zern]

Bruce,

You are giving too much credit to average webmaster.
If people want to be stupid...
It´s their choice
Give them flat dialer

[terminator]

bass chick..you have never anything positvie to say about our company.

i doubt you left the dialer up long enough to make a real judgement. if anyone doesnt try a dialer for a least 5 days (snow will agree on this) before making a judgement then they are wasting their own time and pissing in the wind.

i can tell about webmasters telling us they will try it for 1 hour!! man these sort of webmasters are those that make jackshit anyway.they are small and will never become big with that way of thinking.


The big boys became big because:
1)they are stable. they dont jump around.

2) they give things a proper try before making a judgement

3)they have the capital to pump into their ideas. but they made that capital from stability.

regards,
bruce
dialerk*ng.com

[terminator]

i think i am going to start up a new domain

call it:
dialerschool.com

teach people how to make money. the more i make them the more they make me!

fuck are some webmasters that stupid that they cant see what makes more $$$???

daveknell you are so right with what you are saying!! i agree 101% http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

fuck ....what would i know..i just own a large dialer network! lol


bruce
dialerk*ng.com

[basschick]

i left it up for about a week. lots of downloads, no minutes.

i had my same niteline dialer in the same spot since last october and never budged it. i'm not one of the big boys, but i have worked full time on the web for 5 years now... no other income.

the negative things i said about your program were often based on what i felt was the abusive spamming you did, not your dialers. you insulted other people's programs even though their programs worked well for many people. you jumped in every thread repeatedly. and i was far from the only person that felt that way.

i have a right to prefer the dialers i prefer AND to give my reasons on appropriate threads. so does every webmaster on this board. i did NOT call you a thief and did NOT say anything bad about your dialer - read this thread again - i am now saying you owe me an apology!

i don't expect to get one. but i help a lot of new webmasters with sponsors and galleries with no attempt to make money off of them, and i don't think many here think i'm an asshole.

[terminator]

if you thought there was a problem and you use our dialer , why didnt you contact our 24hour tech support? sounds very strange to me. mmm let me look your account up..whats your real name?? i bet i wont find your account..because it doesn't exsist nor did it ever! starting to wonder about you basschick. http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif

regards,
bruce

[snow]

Wow basschic that was done with class..And bruce you have to agree..I think both of you make really good points....

Bruce i have had people with 150k websites that could not make a penny. I have had people with little se sites that do 500 min a day.. I mean It really sucks and gets annoying that all these people DO JUMP AROUND LIKE MEXICAN BEANS.

But look at it from there point of view bruce. They want to make the most money they can,And they want to be paid... So i do believe that the webmaster has to bounce around till he feels stable.. It sucks for us but thats the way it is...And today its unreal man...

There is a new dialer company coming everyday..But you know what i still wish them luck..Man it used to be Gib and Niteline...If you have something that webmasters like you will do well...

I have heard people say you pay like a clock
people say im the best in service,so we all have our different way of doing business...

When webmasters come together like this and dont blast,its so productive and good for the community....

I'm off to bed guys its 3:30 am Nite......

SNOW http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[snow]

IF YOU HAVE A DIALER THAT WORKS AND YOU TREAT PEOPLE GOOD....

THEY WILL COME I PROMISE.......


I hope my opinion was neutral to the both of you and make you realise that both sides had meaning..

SNOW

[basschick]

wonder away - i contacted your support about a few things, and they were VERY nice... not always very fast, but they seemed to really try. i tried redownloading and uploading the dialer just in case it was corrupted.

but i didn't come onto the board calling you names - i like flat rate dialers, and i only tried to explain that there can be reasons to use them - i never had a dialer from shannon, but shannon has always been nice to me, and offers niche dialers that not many companies offer.

damned if i see why you should be rude to me now, except that perhaps you enjoy hurting people's feelings http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/frown.gif

[basschick]

wonder away - i contacted your support about a few things, and they were VERY nice... not always very fast, but they seemed to really try. i tried redownloading and uploading the dialer just in case it was corrupted.

but i didn't come onto the board calling you names - i like flat rate dialers, and i only tried to explain that there can be reasons to use them - i never had a dialer from shannon, but shannon has always been nice to me, and offers niche dialers that not many companies offer.

damned if i see why you should be rude to me now, except that perhaps you enjoy hurting people's feelings http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/frown.gif

[snow]

Bass shannon is a good guy....... I came out with niche dialers long time ago.. Shit i remember when people used to be per country.. We were like the only ones doing flat.. Now everyone wants flat..

Damm i need to go to sleep BYE

[basschick]

thank you, snow. those were very nice posts http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

and i have one of your shemale dialers right now, through unconnected. i haven't sent a whole lotta traffic to it, but it seems to do pretty well with what it gets - minutes every day http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[snow]

cool well im here if you need me

[terminator]

basschick,
i am not here to hurt anybody just to state the pure facts. what was your name?? i want to check your claims about being in our program....still waiting for your reply.(funny about that)

[terminator]

flat dialers are for lazy resellers who dont want to the math every week for their webmasters per country.
thats why our stats are doing ALL the math.
so people can sit back and be lazy and see exactly what they are making!!

thats my opinion thats the truth

regards,
dialerk*ng.com

[basschick]

bruce, there's nothing funny about it.

my son's name is on your dialer account - he does all our banking as we are partners. and i don't want him hurt by having his name all over this board because you are angry.

i realize you could harm him in this way, but i pray that you won't. your company will re-absorb the dialer when it continues to produce no minutes.

patti

[terminator]

basschick
we are a proffesional company, we do not give out personal info on boards etc. i am not angry. the amount of webmasters we have, and the mins we do, how can i be angry???

i want to know if your claim is true or not. you are avoiding my question.i want to see if you are for real or its just another negative thing you are saying once again about us. i do not appricate a comment from anybody that has never tried a product regardless if it's our product or not.

i hope you understand. so icq me his info and i will look at the account 9976906.
or am i going to hear yet another excuse?
the balls in your court to justify your comments.


hi snow, yes thats right what you said. we do pay like clockwork and well known for it http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[basschick]

i'm not keeping it a secret from the board. account name: phooey

[playa]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by terminator:
one more thing...
http://www.dialerniches.com/

your site has some missleading things on it.
1)"Access to over 27,000 phonelines".
sure ya do! rofl
gib plus niteline plus dialer k*ing wouldn't have even have that many!!!! lol

2) "We Pay $0.37 World Wide In Over 200 Countries!" really?? i wanna join!!! rofl.

your saying you pay .37 for china, taiwan,turkey,arabia,indonesia??? there is only 200 countreis in the world!!!! rofl

best of luck with josh's telco dialer i hope they pay ya all! http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif</font>

wow gib,nitline, and DK don't have over 27,000 telco lines combine,,well no wonder telco web's dialers do sooo many minutes.
Thanks for the plug,,

and btw don't try to confuse Josh into this again,,did you already forget
http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005309-2.html

ONCE AGAIN JOSH DOES NOT OWN TELCO WEB,,

beware of flat dialers my ass,,,
why don't you tell your resellers not offer flat rates then,,you proberly ain't got no resellers cuz your screwing them over because you offer higher rates by signing up directly under you...I don't think you ever heard the owners or representive of GIB,NITELINE, or Telco Web ever came on the board to recruit more webmasters and discredit other sponsers,,

thanks to you, Shannon proberly got 50 more webmasters to sign up with him

stop putting down other people just to make you look good,,
now how is that a professional company..

[snow]

tisk tisk tisk.....Hello Dre

[playa]

just 4 minutes this time snow,,
whats wrong,,had 1 to many,,
LOL

[snow]

woo woo

[Groovy]

If flat rate sucks why is snow the biggest then http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif?!?

[snow]

BECAUSE YOU THEY LOVE ME........

[Telcoweb.com NOC]

Some smaller "sole trader" type competitors may like to throw scorn on the magnitude of our operation.

Telcoweb has existing contracts to terminate over 200 million minutes of data traffic in the next 12 months. As well as adult pay per view dialer's our system also handles VISP (virtual ISP's) and many top tier carrier class telco's use the minute minder and our platforms to manage international minutes. We do use 150 pops and we do have 27000 phonelines.

What is Minute Minder?

Minute Minder is a centralised multi-tiered VISP and PRS management platform designed to provide real-time statistical analysis of metered access from global multiple access platforms (Points of Presence), computing live and historical statistics such as as number of calls, average hold times, gross and net revenues. Minute Minder can be used to calculate out payments to VISP's and PRS resellers, and on a multi-tier level, calculate payments for other VISP's and PRS resellers on an infinite down line. Minute Minder can also provide an indication of revenues to be expected from 'the interconnect' or any other domestic or international inbound calling arrangements.

Minute Minder has practical applications for traditional pay-as-you-go Internet access services such as UK 0845 and 0870/1 services (ISP & VISP), along with premium rate services (PRS) . Minute Minder has been designed as a global solution providing real time event data from multiple carriers, multiple access points, using multiple tariffs, and provides a truly centralised platform for real time, end of day, end of month, and end of year analysis.

Minute Minder has been created as the software portion of a multi-national, multi-function, termination platform for metered and un-metered dial-up TCP/IP traffic.

Quote:
Originally posted by terminator:

one more thing...
http://www.dialerniches.com/
your site has some missleading things on it.
1)"Access to over 27,000 phonelines".
sure ya do! rofl
gib plus niteline plus dialer k*ing wouldn't have even have that many!!!! lol

2) "We Pay $0.37 World Wide In Over 200 Countries!" really?? i wanna join!!! rofl.

your saying you pay .37 for china, taiwan,turkey,arabia,indonesia??? there is only 200 countreis in the world!!!! rofl

[terminator]

the spam board is not this one... telcoweb.

would you like me to post a copy of your coversation with us when you were asking for our advice before you launched?

your words are big, (must be using a dictionary) but that dont impress anyone.
webmasters will make their decision themselves. I hope you pay them.

and i wish you luck with your 27000 phone lines (what a load of bull) line rental alone would set you back at least $270,000 a month.

it makes me wonder if your going to lie to webmasters about that, what else are you lying about? be honest with webmasters and they will do the right thing by you.
lie to them and they will leave you in droves.

regards,
dialerk*ng.com

[Telcoweb.com NOC]

Terminator.

Has it ever occured to you that you might have been hoodwinked? sure we were after an Australian route a while there is nothing wrong with shopping around a little..

Then we found out who you were, how you ripped people off with your sexmansion program and surmised you probably have 20 USrobotics sportsters nailed to a plank of wood in your garage.

I also appears you seem to spend a lot of time slagging the competition thats why your URL is barred from this forum

A webmaster program operator you may be, A licenced telco carrier you are not.

Leave our company name out of your mailicious posts until you get more fact

Anyone who would like a guided tour of our operation in person at our NOC please mail me

adam@telcoweb.com

[terminator]

we ripped people off with sexmansion?? thats a new a one!! we dont rip anyone off.
(love your attempt to side track your lies)

yep we have 5 modems stuck to 2 peices of wood representing 3 offices in the world. thats just as believable as saying 27,000 phone lines. TELL THEM THE TRUTH SMALL PLAYER. be honest to the webamsters as they all read this board.

at least you admit you asked for our help before launching....why ask us for advice if you have 27,000 lines?? and your so big?
you are such a bullshit artist.

and some webmasters have already seen thru you.

good luck

[Telcoweb.com NOC]

*yawn*

FACT: 5 year licence of minute minder system traded for the use of 150 POPS and 27,000 phonelines. The deal is worth $1.7 million dollars with the recent amendments we got full use of a global fibre network with a major carrier that owns ISP's in every country in Europe. They are a house hold name and if you keep an eye on the news page you will find out soon enough http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif

PS People we do not borrow money all our equipment is payed for and we have over a million dollars worth of equipment of our own online.

Thank's Richard the Moderator of this forum for accepting the invitation to visit us next week for a tour of the NOC

http://www.telcoweb.com


TTFN

[terminator]

sounds to me your a confidence trickster.
you used the word "hoodwinked" in your earlier post. claiming you hoodwinked us.
well lets see how many others you are hoodwinking and shaving.

biggest load of bs i have read on this board for a while.

[Telcoweb.com NOC]

We may not post on this board very often but does that mean that we are not a successful group of internet and telecoms professional's that collectively earn several million dollars a year from other internet related activities ?

LOL

seems to me you have not been doing your homework.

Enough of this BBS fun off to do some work.

Have a good day all.

Network Operations
http://www.telcoweb.com

[terminator]

can't come back with a reply on the "hoodwink"

i think we got him on that one folks!


http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


regards,
dialerk*ng.com

[Telcoweb.com NOC]

PPS have a chew on this after you nailed a few more modems to that plank of wood in your garage.


http://www.telcoweb.com/products/minuteminder.htm

[terminator]

thats spam again telcoweb...

we are all still waitng for telcowebs reply on "hoodwinking" his webmasters.

(this telcoweb guy loves side tracking)


regards,
dialerk*ng.com http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[richard]

http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

Yep, i'll be meeting Adam and the team later next week, but please dont ask me to hand count 27,000 phone lines ok http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Seriously, they are what they say they are, i wouldn't be doing business with them if they were not.

I dont know all the companies and projects Adam himself has been/is involved with, but what i do know, is very impressive. Have you been on "The Tonight Show" Bruce? no? He was one of the first guys to make big money from the net here in the uk, and has fingers in a lot of pies.

As for "hoodwinked"... you never played someone before?

I go to the really expensive electronics shop, and talk to their experienced staff about what the best stereo would be for my needs. Once i have the knowledge, i go to the cheaper store and get myself a better deal.

I guess the expensive store would be pissed at me if they knew http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif


All this bitching doesn't do anyone any good, the topic was a good one - i believe the flat rate guys will start to have "conversion ratios" in their terms now - no one wants to be dumped with 6000 Turkey minutes, do they? http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif

So yea, Telcoweb are for real, they are a part of a bigger picture for sure.

I'll let you all know how things go at their NOC next week.

Rich

[terminator]

it should be pointing out that rich is a reseller for telcoweb so ther is a conflict of interest there.

no hard feelings rich http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[inside]

Correct me if Im wrong, but isnt telco just a reseller of GoInDirect's dialers ??

[RongVang]

Inside...
yes you're wrong...
let me please correct you...
Telcoweb is not a reseller of GoinDirect.
If you don't believe then it's your problem...
I don't have time to write any explanations.

PEOPLE! why don't you folks stop criticizing others?

Please remember one of the golden rules of rich, wealthy people...
just...."MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS"


Regards,
Richard Trinh
newdialer.com

[richard]

Bruce, no hard feelings at all.

Of course there is a conflict of interest, but surely no greater than yours? http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif.

Inside, consider yourself corrected http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[playa]

this is getting out of hand,,,

by now every webmaster knows that as of today
there are 3 major dialers out there..there might be more but these are the three

Telco web, GIB, Dk


everyone of them has the good and bad features.
end of conversation,,,lets locked the board

playa
icq#38147712
support@nobsdialer.com

[terminator]

i agree playa http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

lets lock the board and close this thread.

regards,
bruce
dialerk*ng.com

[terminator]

this makes good reading
sorta confirms my feelings!!

http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005695.html

[snow]

DOnt forget niteline... There very big and they have been around longer then jesus