to all german webmasters

[fabian]

hi,

to all you german webmasters: i've heard that it is illegal to offer free porn content like you do with a cj2 without having an avs on your site (§184 i guess). so are here any big german webmasters who make big money every month and live in germany? do you pay taxes? how do you manage that? please post an answer or icq me: 147842

regards,

fabian

[fabian]

i think it's no problem to register domains under another name and not yours. but actually you have to say where you get the money from which is suddenly on your bank account? please help.

[200g]

mach et doch so,
such dir ne alte frau die rente bekommt und mach mit der eine konto auf wo du vollmacht hast und das steuer problem ist bis 14.000 und keine akt mehr, mache ich auch.

Prost

[Andreas]

sehr gute idee http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif

wenn ihr mit euren adult seiten auch noch richtig geld machen wollt kann ich euch nur mein dialer program empfehlen.

http://www.dialerdealer.de/

im gegensatz zu 70% der anderen dialer companies könnt ihr sicher sein das ich keine hits shave und euch immer püntklich bezahlen werde.
ich zahle euch 0,55$/min für die top countries !
mit meinem dialer solltet ihr um einiges mehr machen als mit den überlasteten GIb dialern.
ich hatte eine steigerung von x8 im vergleich zu meinem alten GIb dialer !!!

also bei interesse schaut euch meine seite an und signt up.

das geld schicke ich euch dann per überweiung innerhalb von 2 tagen http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

Greets Andreas
webmaster@dialerdealer.de
ICQ: 118542994
--------------------------------
Dialer Dealer
The famous & reliable Adult Dialer Program
+ No Minute Shaving !
+ 0,55$ for Top Countries !
+ Guaranteed Payment !

[Much0S]

Jawohl, lassen wir allen Deutsch sprachen http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

Really though: keeping your money clean (white, just pay taxes) is probably the best idea nomatter where you are. That way you have a good conciounse (how the fuck do you spell that http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif)

[fabian]

gibt es hier auch deutsche webmaster die ihre sache legal machen und mit denen man vernünftig reden kann, ohne das sie gleich spammen?

please give me some additional info.

[Sexyland]

sorry MuchOS you didnt understand the problem of the german AWMs.It isnt allowed for them to earn money with an international adultsite.


Sexyland

[fabian]

i now heard it should be able to open a bank account in usa or coop with a partner in the us. any info on that?

[Much0S]

How the hell they know it's an adult site you're making money from? When you just enter the money in the bank that you get from your cheque?

They really go out and do whois's on your domain and stuff?

[fabian]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Much0S:
How the hell they know it's an adult site you're making money from? When you just enter the money in the bank that you get from your cheque?

They really go out and do whois's on your domain and stuff?</font>

they don't know. you can risk it. but let's say i make 5k /month and thetax guys come and take a look from where the cheque was ? i could maybe say it's from something total different. but i guess it's not 100%legal and safe. that's what i want.

[Sexyland]

THEY DO!!!You ever heard of jugendschutz.org?They are looking for such sites and search also the domainregistrant and some other things and if they ll find that it s a german webmaster he will get a letter at home.

[Andreas]

unfortunately the AWM business is very hard here in germany...the law is always a step behind you.

@all german webmasters
i know 2 friends who owned a .de adult site.
Both got a visit from the police and were accused for spreading adult material.

Fortunately they were not accused for tax fraud, although they could have been.
I guess its better to pay the taxes because of this big danger.
Better being safe and constantly earning lesser money then being in danger and earning a lot money for a few months.
The time will come where they will catch you !

Greets Andreas
webmaster@dialerdealer.de
ICQ: 118542994
--------------------------------
Dialer Dealer
The famous & reliable Adult Dialer Program
+ No Minute Shaving !
+ 0,55$ for Top Countries !
+ Guaranteed Payment !

[PornoWill]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Andreas:
...and were accused for spreading adult material.</font>

I thought Germany was an open country when it comes to this. So you really have laws against normal porn?

German porn is the best BTW. http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[enlighter]

Hi,

I´m observing this board quite a time now already and now thought I´d add some comments to this topic going on about german webmaster, who I am myself btw, cause I could add some productive information to this:

I WAS already visited by police TWICE because of adult pornography!

while I will only go into more detail a little for the first case I´ll give you more information on the second time.

a) this happened about december 1999 when police made a "Hausdurchsuchung" so they "surprised" me at home took the computer with them etc...everything even my legally bought adult pics cds from weblegal they took away.
I was denounced of spreading hardcore porn through my several free sites and having imported hardcore stuff into the country, which was atleast as "bad" as the spreading of porn itself!! although I EXTRA legally bought it! I probably would have got less problems with using unlicensed content!!

As I had the luck that I only was 18 at the time when they "thought" I started with the sites I "only" got 60 hours of social work and 4 days of youth arrest - but that only because I was punished by youth law, otherwise I could have gotten 1 - 2 years of probation (Bewährung).
I never got my pc back!

b) the second time just occured last years september ( or was it already in october??...think it was october, yep!)
when police came, in the morning once again.
This time I knew they couldnt do me anything because I extra had NO content online at all...not a single pic, but run famous www.adultreferers.com (http://www.adultreferers.com) which I already had up to about 60 - 80K of traffic going through per day (somewhat targeted) but they didnt care, they still insulted me of spreading porn over the net, as through the links that were presented by my system you could acces porn on other sites of other people with whom I dont have anything to do!!!

This time I took myself a lawyer and the case is still open, however also this time it seems as if I wouldnt get my pc back....
The sites are already down and this costed me and estimate of far over $ 20K already ..due to loss in income from the site and server costs with no income and no possibility to hold the bizz up etc....

If anybody wishes more information I probably can hand over, reply within this topic - I guess I´m the most experienced guy in this matter! ;-)

enlighter

[PornoWill]

I am sorry to hear that Enlightener. http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/frown.gif

I have always thought Germany was one of the most free country when it comes to porn in Europe along with Denmark.

[tradermcduck]

@enlighter

How is the situation in Austria, Switzerland or other european countries?

Thank you for your reply!

[tradermcduck]

@ all german webmasters:

How is it possible for e. g. http://www.praline.de to do this???

[Tobias]

It's because they are not offering any "hardcore". They only offer erotic images...no "porn".

- Tobias

[tradermcduck]

So your safe with erotic photos?

[Tobias]

There is a difference between erotic and porn. Erotic photos are ok, because they are not defined as porn. If you want to distribute porn you have to use an avs, otherwise you could be fined up to 500.000 DM which is about $230,000 or you go to jail for up to three years....It sucks.

- Tobias

[HornyWolf]

are there any austrian webmasters here?
is it there also strict like in germany?

[fabian]

it would be nice if can collect some ideasm thoughts how to make money with porn even if you are in germany. my current plan is to find a partner in the us, and then he gets the money and he gets a small share of the profit. then he transfers the money to me and we do it with a normal bill for example for web design or html cgi coding. any other ideas?

[tradermcduck]

There has been a good thread about this topic some months ago:

http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000800-2.html

[Tobias]

HornyWolf:

There are no regulations for porn in Austria (except animal and child porn). You don't have to use an avs, but you'll probably get a problem if you want to do business with the germans...

fabian:

I think the it's a good idea, but how will you find a partner in the us who you can trust. If you make tenthousands of dollars each month this would become a big problem...

- Tobias

[Flash]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by enlighter:


a) this happened about december 1999 when police made a "Hausdurchsuchung" so they "surprised" me at home took the computer with them etc...

</font>

Did Jugendschutz.net or somebody else contact you before this and tell you to put your sites down because they're illegal? Or did the police 'visit' you all of a sudden? - I wouldn't like to have that happening to me http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/frown.gif ... Germany sucks!

[Much0S]

only 1 thing to say to you guys. Because you are in the EU you can move anywhere in the EU without problems... so come to the Netherlands - everything is allowed here http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif LMAO! http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Hypo]

That's the first and only country who have legalised Euthanasia, right? And legal prostitution too if I remember correct.

[tradermcduck]

@enlighter

You say they accused you for importing hardcore stuff to Germany! I cannot believe this. What's up with the Hustler and thousands of other magazines - it is imported to Germany, too! I have never heard they have a problem.

[Tobias]

It is not forbidden to imported hardcore material to Germany if you are at least 18 years old.

The problem is, that it is forbidden to distribute hardcore to persons which are not yet 18 years old. If you are 18 you are allowed to view hardcore, own it and sell it to people over 18 years.

- Tobias

[tradermcduck]

@tobias

Are you sure regulations in Austria are not that strict?

[Tobias]

tradermcduck:

Yes, I am doing business with some Austrians.

Go and feel lucky http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

- Tobias

[tradermcduck]

Thanks for your quick answer Tobias!

I am from Austria and I run some non-nude sites (bikini) and a babe site (topless babes). So no hardcore or porn I think... However I am a bit scared reading this thread!

[HornyWolf]

here is a link about austrian rights concerning internet

http://www.cyberlaw.at/it-recht_questions.html

tradermcduck

if you have icq, please contact me: 119121083

[fabian]

i didn't understand it from your link hornywolf. is it allowed to have cj2 sites in austria?

[Tobias]

fabian:

The question is at http://www.cyberlaw.at/it-recht_answers/it-recht_answers120.html

Following these laws it is only ilelgal to distribute porn in a _physical_ way, which means magazines, vhs tapes etc.
The law does not affect the distribution through digital mediums.

- Tobias

[HornyWolf]

tobias:
but the § 2 PornG means:

you may not make porn available to persons under 16 years - in any material or virtual form. but this is what with TGPs is done, more or less.

think, the best way is to ask a lawyer...

[Tobias]

HornyWolf:

You're not totally right. It does limit the distribution of paid porn, so cj sites and tgp's aren't affected.

I agree with you that a lawyer should be asked.

- Tobias

[Andreas]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tobias:
It is not forbidden to imported hardcore material to Germany if you are at least 18 years old.</font>

I fear thats not correct http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/frown.gif
For example you are not allowed to buy hardcore porn videos from the US for personal use only and have them sent to germany.
The german "Zoll" wont allow them to be sent to you.

Its pretty hard to run a safe adult business in germany.

[Tobias]

Andreas:

Really ? Didn't know that...You are right, adultwebmastering sucks in Germany http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/frown.gif

- Tobias

[enlighter]

ok I´ll now reply to several different messages, as I was away the whole day:

to PornoWill:
yep I also just always heard of that comparision between germany &lt;-&gt; usa which sounded like usa has very easy laws when it comes to show brutality, while germany has very strict ones for this and on the other hand its reverse for porn and sexuality...but as it seems its just not true, sad but... :-((

to tradermcduck:
sorry don´t have a clue about the laws in other countries, beside that I know that netherlands is the country with probably the easiest laws that are almost like: everything beside childporn is ok.... which should be a paradise for adult webmasters! :-((

Because of the difference with porn and erotic I have to agree with Tobias, however also erotic photos are not legal, they just hunt you for this, so literately you are safe with only presenting so-called softcore shots (pussy etc is already hardcore...no masturbating, or sexual scenes have to be presented in order to make it hardcore!!)

to fabian:
I also think its first of all very risky to do business with a faked or real partner in another country and then even in the usa, which have quite enough strict laws themselves and beside that it sounds like a lot of extra work and effort

to Flash:
nope in BOTH cases they absolutely did not give me a warning that I should close those sites, but rather at 6:00 am the door bell ringed and there they were (4 at total, on the second time they were three) they came in a civil audi something car...
they actually did researches for over two months before they came....

MuchOS:
well I guess the netherlands are a great country, however there are three reasons why I personally would not move there:
- I already were several times in Amsterdam and twice in Maastricht and yep especially Amsterdam truely rocks and you most probably cannot experience so much things in one night anywhere in the world, like you can staying there, however I also recognized a LOT of criminality in Amsterdam (it wasnt that bad in Maastricht) even my friends and me were threatened with a gun twice and one time even we were robbed after my friend had got a big "Rambo"-knife at his throat....
- Some netherlands seems to dont like the germans very well http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif
- I´ve got so many friends here...I dont wanna miss them you know

to Tobias:
well nice that you think you know all the rules and laws so well, but actually I was not only accused for having imported hardcore sexual material to germany (from outside of the EU / USA / weblegal) but also punished for having done it!!
And as I already wrote I was 18 already by that time (my birthdate is 08.1980)

Greets,
Enlighter

[Sexyland]

Hi wouldnt it be allowed to create eroticsites as a german webmaster "for" somebody who dont live in germany?He would upload the sites and give you money for the "making of HIS" sites.

Just a question @all

[ThaKiller]

its time to clear some things I guess:

EROTIC sites (enlighter described the difference to "porn" sites in our country real well) are allowed and the major magazines, tv shows etc. make a shitload of money with those sites, some sites actually have more 120x120 button ads than pics on some sites...
these are FSK 16 sites.
as long as its softcore you dont need to be afraid of anything, you need no AVS system etc.

As enlighter explained already.. german police researches very well when it comes to porn sites, either hosted in germany or just registered to a german.
well, the government was about to lift these laws when the whole child porn rings discussion started and so .. you can imagine the rest http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/frown.gif

the situation really sucks in germany!
since 2 months my partner only sends me the money which is below 600 DM -
the rest stays at his bank and in a few years I`ll "run" out of this country and never come back http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif
oh yea, regarding the hosting discussion:
I have my own server together with my partner who is also the admin of our little company so I`m kinda out of the fire http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif

In my opinion its just not worth risking some years of jail just because of some bucks...
well, for others it might be more money I guess..the "big" german adult webmasters havent replied to this thread yet so I think they found a solution?

[enlighter]

Yep this truely would be quite interesting to hear the big guns to this topic....

[Danyo]

wenn du keine pornografischen bilder auf der seite hast und die FSK16 bilder auf nen free host lädst, is das mit der domain kein ding. hatte jedenfalls noch keine probleme

http://www.california-babes.net

guck selbst wie ich das mit den pix gemacht hab http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif

[Groovy]

ja sicher

das ist doch schon oder nicht?

das ist ganz toll! zupergeil!

[enlighter]

mmmh....just did some researches and decited to warm up this topic one more time, as we still havent got any final solution, (have we found any solution at all?!)

And I guess this would be quite important...

I dont wanna enjoy another police raid because they accuse me of spreading pornographic material...that would eventually break my neck!!

Isnt there any big german webmaster out there that can give us his solution for this mess??

Thx,
Enlighter

[NakedPanda]

Sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick here but if this is about german webmasters having to put content behind an AVS
Then it would be easy enough for them to email page design and content to be published in a country were this was not illegal the same is true with UK and other countries.It sounds like there is enough demand for a company to be set up to do this in holland say. The problem is from a UK hardcore point of view although courts have already decided that publishing takes place in the country were you upload from and that countries laws apply to the uploads.
The police just seem to make it up as they go along so even if german webmasters sent there site to a friend or company in holland to put on their servers. the police would probably just invent some reason why this was not ok.

Panda

[enlighter]

that kind of idea, with letting a dutch company do the publishing of your site under their name or something is ofcourse quite nice - the problem, as far as I´m concerned is, that I dont know of such a service and what about security ?! (how would you be possible to prove that its your site again then...so that not they collect the funds???)

[NakedPanda]

I dont know of such a service at the moment but there seems demand for 1
You make sure your sponsor pays you not who is listed as the site publisher but basicaly the only way to make sure would be to have a contract that was worth something so you could sue them if they did. And then after a while the company would get a good reputation and trust.
There are already lots of trustable webmasters from holland eg Wolfshade maybe someone like this would be interested in setting one up.

Panda

[jayeff]

So if I have this right, softcore porn (=erotica) is not going to get you into trouble. Hardcore porn won't either, IF it is behind an AVS (or presumably, within a paysite).

If I have anything wrong, the rest of this won't make much sense, but if not, I don't see what the problem is...

First of all, it is difficult to do business with "kids" (and if you do, it is likely to involve them abusing their parents' credit cards or telephone bills). So even if we ignore the moral issues, why should we be concerned about any measure to deter kids from surfing adult sites? If there were any effect, surely it would be to benefit us: with reduced bandwidth costs and higher sales to visitor ratios.

Second, the prevailing opinion has long been that the most effective way to sell hardcore is not to give it away, but to tease with softcore. So again, why be concerned that our visitors won't get hardcore unless they pay for it? That should be our aim anyway...

The laws in the US, UK, etc., are not in spirit, so very different. The big difference - to date - is that they have not been uniformly or rigorously enforced. But there are lots of good legal, business and moral reasons, to follow the example of many big sites and AVS operators, and design sites to accomodate such laws as already exist or that can reasonably be anticipated.

[enlighter]

....well I aggree with you concerning your opinion, that AVS sites probably earn you more money then usual freesites do....

HOWEVER dont forget about TGP sites, Picposts, CJ sites, galleries, etc..etc...!!

and BTW: you also shouldnt ignore the fact that german webmasters for example are not even allowed to import any hardcore material from the usa or wherever (like licensed pics and movies) that means you not even could have hardcore content behind the AVS security!

[gse]

I suppose the germans can go the same way some people from usa do - just open up offshore account and abc company. It all comes down to how deep the police and the law enforcement in certain country are willing to dig. I used to have a partner from Germany and we did exactly what you said in this thread - i.e all the domains servers and stuff on my name, I'd wire him small amounts, etc. Still the guy was too scared to continue and went on to do mainstream programming. Now I see why. Sad..

[fabian]

i guess the only secure way (about 99% secure) is to open an offshore account on some island. i will do that as soon as i make enough money with porn. such an offshore with credit card costs sth like $2000 / year and some monthly costs. Jonathan Craiq posted about that and he offers such offshores. just do a search for 'offshore' in general board. so i'll go illegal as soon as i get my offshore http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif