FTC Crackdown On RJB Telecom

[Labret]

They just got fucked over their billing practices and the use of dialers.

The webs largest adult sites. FUCKED.
http://www.lukeford.com has some good coverage.

Dialers are going to take another gigantic hit from this one. Let alone the lasting impact this is gonna have on net porn in general.

[cashrat]

This is what happens when you don't speak out against these bums.Dam dialers were good while there lasted.Prepare yourself and biz for the boomerang effect ,we will all suffer because of this.All it takes is one son of bitch to fuck it all up can anyone say Verity,or i should say RJB.

[Labret]

Dialers were just bad from the start. Maybe if it didnt reroute through some fucking thrid world African country to the tune of 4 bucks a minute this would not have happened. Dialers are a fucking scam and EVERYBODY knows it.

But that was only 1 part of it. Rebilling and billing people who never signed up is fucking insanity. BUT, how many times have you (if you run a paysite) gotten an email saying they wanted a refund cause they never signed up, when you know damn well they did cause it is in your logs. Fraud is ugly on both sides. You just better hope to fucking god that Bush doesn't win next week.

[candidpublishinginc]

"All it takes is one son of bitch to fuck it all up can anyone say Verity,or i should say RJB."

Cashrat, shut the fuck up. You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. RJB Telcom, Inc. used the dialers in the MOST responsible manner. They only offered the dialer if:

1. The surfer's credit card was declined.

2. On an exit console that opened IF the first exit console was closed.

That's nothing compared to what some of these CJ sites were doing. The people that fucked it up were people like you forcing a download on exit, or having a javascript popup saying "Britney Spears Nude! No credit card need, just a small download!"

[Dan S]

Can somebody translate this to plain english?

I was about emailing RJB today, because all check for september (should have been mailed around oct. 10).

If I say all I mean checks from 4 other german webmasters didnt arrive here yet.

Anybody in Europe got paid for september?

And:
if checks arrive, because they are just late, will they be cleared?

What does recievership mean? Are the accounts on hold?

God damn, I lost this year already way too much money because sponors got fucked up.

Can somebody give some hint??

God damn

[Labret]

According to the FTC website, their assets have been frozen.

[candidpublishinginc]

Fucking FTC. That's what you get with fucking big government. I needs those funds for my new ventures now too.

Fucking FTC.

[candidpublishinginc]

"Defendants' "pay by phone" option provides no mechanism or process to assure that the person making the purchase is the line subscriber. As a result, line subscribers get billed for charges made from their telephone line even if they did not make or authorize the calls. Advertising materials from defendants' billing company, Global Internet Billing, indicates that the "pay by phone" billing option is targeted at teenagers and other unauthorized minors who do not have credit cards. On its web site, Global Internet Billing describes the phone option as a way to solicit "kids and freespending teenagers" since they do not have credit cards."

Is this true? GIB said that on their site?

[TIMMER]

I found that wording on the GIB site....the FTC totally took this out of context.

It says for a totally different product, a non-adult product that they apparently have.
It is called musicpayment.com, I guess for mp3 downloads..........WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RJB!!!!!!

Again...this is just more evidence that the FTC will do anything (including lie and make shit up) to fuck over RJB

Scary shit!!!!

[Coke]

20. Defendants do not take any steps to verify or confirm that the telephone line subscriber that they ultimately bill for access to sexually explicit material is in fact the person who downloaded and used the dialer software. Defendants do not know if the line subscriber's minor children, house guests or others with access to the phone line used the dialer software, or whether any such usage was authorized by the line subscriber.

this can only be possible in the US. Here in Austria the state attorney would laugh at such a statement.
People are responsible for keeping 'house guests' away from their phone lines lol If they can't manage that, they are billed here. The phone company will even charge you a 'labor fee' if you complain about such a bill just because a house guest used your line without your authorization.

Then again I remember it's election time...

[sonicpuke]

God damn those dialers ;(

All these things are things I was trying to tell everyone about and they all said I was crazy.

Just like coke is saying above.

It's simple really. The dialers are a scam and any real bussinessman should see that on the face of it. It's just obvious. The ftc shouldn't have to explain that you can't just rape people like that just because they click a few buttons.

I just fucking hope this doesn't fuck up my JOB ;( Fucking dialers

[chimp]

EVERY pay adult website that has a lot of traffic and is worth a damn encounters some level of credit card fraud. In fact, malicious people use other people's credit cards ALL OF THE TIME to gain access not only to porn sites, but also to goods and services NOT EVEN SOLD ON THE INTERNET! (I bet some of them don't even have computers) I know its shocking, but its true! As the owners and operators of some of the largest and most prolific adult pay sites on the planet, I would imagine that they suffered more cases of credit card fraud than just about anyone else. Password traders use other people's credit cards ALL THE TIME to gain access to adult web sites. If RJB were the ones who were charging people's credit cards without their consent, they are the biggest fools on the planet at this moment, but I'm willing to bet that they weren't.

[Tam]

Well said Coke, I totally belive in that statement.... if MORE people took the responsibility for their OWN households then no one would be having the trouble they are having now. This goes for ANTHING, not just porn.

I run a very tight ship in my house and no one entering it even needs to think they are going to get on my computer or phone and make and then make me pay for it.

This is just MY opinion and I am a USA citizen, but I am so damn sick and tired of the abuse excuse, the "I didn't do it" excuses....... all of this is a damn copout in my opinion and all it takes is for ONE damn person to bitch and it's then becoming a federal case in the news the very next damn day........ in my way of thinking.. and I am 36, so I am from the old school..... if you do the crime you do the time, simple as that...... this is with regards to ANYTHING!!

Sorry, I babbled again.

Tam

[Due]

sonicpuke>
God damn those dialers ;(
Ehhhh now even credit card fraud is being done with the dialers?
Geeeez you live in a simple world http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif
Anything goes wrong then.
Fuck those stupid dialers http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[sonicpuke]

Tam

Are you waiting for the FBI to kick down your door before you realize that dialers are a rippoff and also illegal.

It's not the FTC it's the dialers.
If you can't see that I don't know what else to say.

Just because you find someone stupid/ignorant or simple enough to fall for a scam doesn't make it legal. It is a scam and it's obviousblly not legal.

I'm haven't been saying much about this stuff lately because I saw that what I was saying was actually happening and I really don't take joy in seeing others fail.

I tried to get as many people to stop that stuff before it was too late.

Everyone wanted to milk it as long as possible and now we all pay the price.

You can blame it on the surfer all you want but you should have known. I myself warned you.

I hope you find another way to support your kids other that dailers (I mean that too)

Realize that dialers are not the way to do it though. Don't wait for the FTC to force it either. It hurts us all. ;(

sonic

[chimp]

sonic, shut up. seriously.

What coke is saying is that ACCOUNTABLITY LIES IN THE HANDS OF THE PERSON WHO OWNS THE PHONE. I'm so fucking sick of everyone blaming all of their problems on someone else. I understand that you don't like dialers. We ALL understand that. Saying that you told us so and that you were right all along and that anyone who uses a dialer is an idiot and that you are far too scrupulous to ever use something as shady as a product that charges people money AND tells them its going to do so if they scroll all the way to the bottom of the terms and conditions, check 'Yes, I understand and have fully read the terms and conditions', and then click 'OK'.

I have nothing against you and, of course, you are more than welcome to your own opinon, as are we all. Just please quit cramming it down all of our throats over and over again.

[sonicpuke]

Well dialers were mentioned all through that article about rjb.

What you haven't noticed the big crackdown on dialers?

Huh? You don't see any correclation between this and the FTC's sudden interest in the porn bussiness?

This is exactlly what I was warning about and now it's happening but I still just don't know what I'm talking about?

Will people be still saying this when the last porn site gets shut down?

The dialers have attracted MUCH attention to my job and it's now looking to get harder and harder to do bussiness.

Am I just imagining all this?

[kingping]

HAHAHA, you people may now have to find an honest method of making money

[chimp]

Yes, you are just imagining all of this.
For everyone else; the sky is NOT falling, as usual.

[WETDOG]

Well before the dialers it was small time CC re~billing problems, but nothing like this Dialer Crap, the Dialer will Be the DOOM for porn webmasters if this Keeps Up! this FTC is really pushing the issue..and i bet you here more soon , thisis just the begining to a BIG MESS i bet if you run a pay site in the USA.

my 2 cents

[sonicpuke]

Saying that you told us so and that you were right all along
Never said this. I mentioned that I did try to warn people and only because people STILL seem to be acting like they just can't believe it. Believe it. Find a better way to make money man (Your not a fool. I'm serious and trying to help you.)

and that anyone who uses a dialer is an idiot Never said this. (Name calling. Not my thing)

and that you are far too scrupulous to ever use something as shady as a product that charges people money AND tells them its going to do so if they scroll all the way to the bottom of the terms and conditions, check 'Yes, I understand and have fully read the terms and conditions', and then click 'OK'.
Never said this either.
I never claimed to be above anyone like you say here or any more scrupulous. I tried the dialers myself. It was pretty obvious to me after a while what a scam they were though. (It's obvious. Just because someone clicked a box doesn't mean you can screw them over.) They may be a minor, They may not be the lines owner there could be even other factors.
You need a signature for a legally binding contract??? No??? Ignore the law if you like but some things should be obvious. I'm not just gonna shut up though because you tell me to. What I say is the truth and I don't really see what your problem with it is.

It just doesn't pay to fuck over your customers. Why isn't this obvious to ANYONE trying to do ANY kind of bussiness ANYWHERE at ANYTIME. I just don't get that.


ACCOUNTABLITY LIES IN THE HANDS OF THE PERSON WHO OWNS THE PHONE
(Yes I understood this point long ago. Unfortunatly no matter how much you say it doesn't make it true. The FTC has said that it's not so and is acting on it. Are you still claiming this even after legal action has now been taken disputing this? Not just by some random surfer but by the FTC itself? They make the rules of what is fair and what's not in america do they not? It's no way to do bussiness to assume that if you get consent from your "customer" that now you will charge him as much as possible.)

I'm done arguing about it. Especailly when some people just don't see it.

Maybe the FTC will change thier laws and the phone companies will just sit there while phones get shuttoff (Thier profits going bye bye)

Don't hold your breath though.

It has nothing to do with anyone being stupid and I never said that. I kind of resent that too since I'm always careful to not call names. (Well I did say fucking dialers but since the dialers have no feelings I'm not gonna sweat that.)

The reason I speak now is not to tell anyone that I told you so. But because people are still talking like this is not big deal and maybe we can fight the FTC on this somehow.

Smell the coffee. PLEASE I make my living in this bussiness.

What else are you waiting to see?

[richard]

Seriously, the whole question is whether or not the FTC will let phone billing be accepted (like it IS in europe, monitored by ictis).

If it isn't, surely you have got to say "bye bye" to audiotext services?

The FTC are saying that 1) minors can access the stuff, 2) that the phonebill payer needs to authorise it.

Obscene speech is controlled under some law is it not in the USA? ie you can call a phone sex line and have an obscene convosation, but cannot broadcast it on the radio or something. How do phone sex companies get around this?

They say "you are getting billed $3 per minute, press 1 to confirm, you must be the phone bill payer, or have their permission, press 2"

no?

FTC are cracking down, but all i think it will result in is a dialer software that focuses on the cost more, and the fact you have to be the subscriber.

don't worry, i am still sure that dialers will be around, just not like they used to be.

REMEMBER- it is ONLY the USA that has a problem with this, Europe is cool with it.
------------------------------------------

ok, just reading lukeford.com.. here comes some funny funny shit.


The declarations also made it clear that there is no conceivable way the consumers could have authorized defendants' charges.
For intance, one consumer - a mother of four girls eleven years and younger - had no computer in her house when the charges were purportedly authorized.

http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/smilies/laugh.gif

Another consumer was overseas on vacation when the charges were placed. The credit card on which the charges appeared arrived during this time and had not been activated.

http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/smilies/laugh.gif

Still another consumer was an 88 year old woman with vision impairment

http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/smilies/laugh.gif http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/smilies/laugh.gif http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/smilies/laugh.gif http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/smilies/laugh.gif http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/smilies/laugh.gif thats the funniest.

This is not all about dialers, this is about free trials, repeat billings, and fraud.

sure, dialers are a part of it - but nothing new from the verity stuff.

16.8% charback ratio, nice.


Read this, from http://www.ftc.gov/os/2000/10/rjbtelcomcomplaint.htm WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT!

<<

VIOLATIONS OF SECTION 5 OF THE FTC ACT

23. As set forth below, defendants, individually and in concert with others, have violated Section 5(a) of the FTC Act in connection with the marketing, promotion, offer and sale of access to their sexually explicit Internet-based entertainment services.

COUNT I

24. In numerous instances, in the course of billing, attempting to collect, and collecting money from consumers, defendants represent to consumers, expressly or by implication, that consumers purchased or agreed to purchase goods or services from defendants, and therefore owe money to defendants.

25. In truth and in fact, in numerous instances, consumers did not purchase or agree to purchase goods or services from defendants, and therefore do not owe money to defendants.

26. Therefore, defendants' representations, as set forth above, are deceptive, and violates Section 5(a) of the FTC Act, 15 U.S.C. §45(a).

COUNT II

27. In numerous instances, defendants charge or debit the accounts of consumers, purportedly for access to their web sites.

28. In truth and in fact, in numerous instances, consumers have not accessed, contacted, been contacted by, purchased, or agreed to purchase or pay for any goods or services from defendants or from anyone for whom defendants purport to bill. Large numbers of consumers have never heard of RJB Telcom, Inc. prior to receiving their account statements, and therefore cannot reasonably avoid defendants' billing for services that they did not purchase.

29. Defendants' practice of charging and debiting consumers' credit or debit card accounts without authorization causes substantial injury that consumers cannot reasonably avoid and that is not outweighed by countervailing benefits to consumers or competition.

30. Therefore, defendants' practice, as outlined above, is unfair and violates Section 5(a) of the FTC Act, 15 U.S.C. § 45(a).

COUNT III

31. In numerous instances, defendants represent, expressly or by implication, that because a line-subscriber's telephone was used to access Internet web sites through the line-subscriber's computer modem using the Defendant's dialing program, the line subscriber is legally obligated to pay defendants for that access, whether or not the line subscriber actually accessed such web sites.

32. In truth and in fact, in numerous instances, the line subscriber is not legally obligated to pay defendants for accessing Internet web sites through defendants' dialing program.

33. Therefore, the representation set forth in Paragraph 31 is deceptive, and violates Section 5(a) of the FTC Act, 15 U.S.C. §45(a).

COUNT IV

34. In numerous instances, defendants bill or cause to be billed, and attempt to collect or arrange for the collection of payment from, a line subscriber whose telephone may have been used to call an international telephone number through the line- subscriber's modem, using the defendants' dialing program in order to access an Internet web site, but who did not himself or herself access such site or use the defendants' dialing program, or authorize anyone else to do so.

35. Line subscribers cannot reasonably block telephone calls to international numbers. Therefore, line subscribers cannot reasonably avoid defendants' billing and collection efforts for international telephone calls made through the defendants' dialing program by others while using those line subscribers' computer modems and telephone lines.

36. Defendants' practice of billing and attempting to collect from line subscribers whose computer modems and telephone lines may have been used to access Internet web sites using the defendants' dialing program, but who themselves have not accessed such web sites or used the defendants' dialing program, causes substantial injury to the line subscribers that is not outweighed by countervailing benefits to consumers or competition.

37. Therefore, Defendants' acts and practices, as alleged in Paragraphs 34 through 36, are unfair, and violate Section 5(a) of the FTC Act, 15 U.S.C. § 45(a).

>>

pure 100% bullshit.

http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[BrianWC]

I just read the entire article and this has very little to do with dialers.

Apparently, their credit card chargebacks have been out of control since '99 and have recieved incredible amounts of complaints.

According to the article, they exceeded everyone else's porn chargeback rates combinded in the last two years.

The dialers I guess were the last straw.

They were using GIB dialers who already had problems with the FTC to begin with.

I have no personal input about the subject, I'm just repeating what I read.

http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[BrianWC]

richard,

damn! you beat me to it!!

[cashrat]

Look dumbass when did I inform you of my business pratices?I think never. Originally posted by candidpublishinginc:
"All it takes is one son of bitch to fuck it all up can anyone say Verity,or i should say RJB."

Cashrat, shut the fuck up. You have no fucking clue what you're talking about. RJB Telcom, Inc. used the dialers in the MOST responsible manner. They only offered the dialer if:

1. The surfer's credit card was declined.

2. On an exit console that opened IF the first exit console was closed.

That's nothing compared to what some of these CJ sites were doing. The people that fucked it up were people like you forcing a download on exit, or having a javascript popup saying "Britney Spears Nude! No credit card need, just a small download!"

[eRock]

As far as the dialers go in the US. The US goverment are a bunch of pussies right now & are SOOO afraid of hurting anyone's feelings & no one wants to be held accountable for ANYthing! The people bitchin' about this are the same type of people that bitch when they get the CC bill after they signed up for a site. They say that they never signed up cuz either they don't wanna get in trouble from the wife, or they just plain want what they got for free! Same w/ the dialers. They were all horny when they used it & $$$ money didn't matter till they actually got the bill...or they just flat out didn't read the terms. Why would they give a fuck about us!? They just don't wanna pay the $$$...that's all there is to it!

[Tam]

All I can say here is this:

BRAVO EROCK!!!!!!!! I could not have said it better myself........ without taking all damn day to do it that is. http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif

Tam

[chimp]

This is my favorite part:
22. In many cases, consumers have had to cancel their existing credit or debit card accounts, or line subscribers have had to change or disconnect their telephone numbers in order to stop incurring continuing additional charges from defendants.

That is fucking priceless :))) Yes, they have to change their phone numbers. I guess that certainly DOES stop your old phone number from being charged for the calls at least.

The prosecuters clearly don't even know what they're dealing with.

[sonicpuke]

You do have responsibility as a person engaging in bussiness to follow the law whether you agree with it or not.

The resposibility is not on the consumer to avoid unethical bussiness practices. That's why we have government oversite. When they find something defrauding customers they act on it.

It's one of the great things in america that people cannot get screwed like this. Responsibility is one thing but you can't screw people even if they did check a box. (Duh)

The majority of consumers may even fall into the catagories your describing.

But there are undoubtablly consumers that really DIDN'T authorize charges on thier telephone. (And if thier kid authorized it then it's not legal. A child can't be bound by a contract. If thier friend did it then the friend should owe the money not the line owner. The person who owns the phone didn't authorize it so how can you expect him to pay.)

It doesn't matter if you agree with that. It's the law of this country. You can't screw people and say they should just take responsibility.

Even after the FTC presses charges your still so convinced it's all the surfers fault?

They are going after the bigges name in porn now but it's still no big deal? God help us all. The government is now looking at us all very closely now and it will no doubt have an effect on the whole industry. I really hope I don't end up having to go back to my day job and bitch about how the dialers ruined my easy internet job.

It really sucks. And it really sucks to listen to people get all high and mighty like they have some moral high ground here and how it's all about how the surfer is trying to pull some kind of scam here.

God I hope something changes or that you that keep saying this stuff aren't as prevelant as I fear. It seems to be getting worse and worse every day now but nobody's gonna let up now?

[WETDOG]

Sonic............................................. ........................................

I think you are the best honest guy i have met ! we dont trade to much any more but trim your posts a bit hehe..

I agree with what -u-R- Saying 100%..

you can post long messages but you cant beat a horse dry? i dont even know what that means hehe.. no i understand your point! if the others are "blind" so let them go through the mud.. you have tryed too hard to help the blind.. nuff said..

Wetdog

[whatever]

....

[whatever]

Listen people...

The entire adult industry has been a scam from day one anyway.

-- Recurring Credit Card Billing is a bigger scam than dialers will ever be. Do you think that a user is sent an email everytime the membership renews (each month)?

NO WAY... Why is that?

The billing companies do not want to remind the consumer over and over they are being rebilled and provide them with a clear means to cancel every month with an invoice... That would be much to up front and everyone who wasn't using the service would cancel.....

They would much rather try and slip it by unnoticed on your monthly credit card bill.

Its all bullshit people.... Its all a scam.. and has always been...

It will never stop being a scam untill the people we are REALY making the millions from this... Not you pissants who post on this board.. but the people who realy make things happen, make a change.

But they will never do that unless the government forces them to... why you ask? Because 80% of them are scaming bastards and have been from day one... 'FREE MEMBERSHIPS' from cybererotica, 'trial memberships' from everyone else... they are all scams..

Everyone will try and defend their own particular scam or sponser they are signed up with...... but at the end of the day you are all scammers..promoting even bigger scammers.. you are all con artists... the entire adult internet industry was built on the 'free membership' scam...

Once all the dust settles from this...

There will be no more reccuring credit card billing for adult sites... at least not in the form you know it in now...

Dialers will still exist... But the price the consumer is charged will be around a dollar a minute. and there will be strict guidelines as to the construction of the dialer software itself..

What you people don't realise, as far as the dialer game goes, is that you are all getting riped off... the consumer is getting riped off, everyone is getting screwed except the phone company.. AND the guy who has the contract with the termating phone company... They are spliting the cost of the call... taking home 3 dollars a minute and paying you shit... and raping the consumer on a product he can get for much cheaper somewhere else....

I have been reading all of your posts about the dialer industry and its all pure speculation, you people don't know shit.. and your 'big reseller' guys dont know shit either, they may think they do but this shit is run by a few guys who sit around laughing at all the rest of you.. I know for a fact what I am talking about... and you will see all this come to pass in the months to come.

The cost of the call vs. payouts to webmasters and value of product delivered to the consumer is WAY WAY out of proportion... But no one on the top wants to change it because they are making millions off your sorry asses...

HAHAHA

but... alas.... things will change as far as USA dialer traffic is concerned...there will still be money to be made... but the days of raping and pillaging the consumer are over...

This whole dialer thing was started by one guy back in late 1996 - 1997.... then the FTC busted his ass after about a year for BLATENTLY riping consumers off... MUCH worse than they do now... I mean this guy was turning off the fucking modem speaker before the thing dialed, ect..

Well, after that.. no one would touch the dialer game with a ten foot pole for the next 2 years... then in early / mid 2000 the SAME GUY who started the origonal dialer started up again... this time with a partner.. well eventualy after a few months the partner left the origonal guy and there were created 2 compeating major dialer supliers... the old guy and the partner who screwed him.. http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

hahaah its crazy buts its the fucking truth people... since then there have been smaller wanna be guys poping up with there own terminations and lame software but the truth of the mater is the whole dialer thing was started by one guy who never had the best intentions of the consumer at heart.. and to this day the same guy still controls the market... All of your resellers either get their software from one or the other...

That is all comming to an end, as the adult industry will be forced to play by 'fair' rules. Which means you will all have to take a drop in the money you are used to making from riping people off.. You can all expect about a 30% drop in revenue once the major players clean up their programs. This is just a fact of life and you will all still be able to make good fucking money in the adult internet industry. You'll just have to start being up front with your customers instead of trying to trick them all day long.


Bitch all you want I dont care..

But you WILL see a cleanup. Especialy when they start going after peoples offshore shit..
http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/10/30/irs.creditcards/

hahaha

Have a nice day people..

and keep an eye out for a LEGIT SOLUTION to this bullshit off a problem...

[WETDOG]

whatever:

Well that rebilling tactic is used by all sorts of companys worldwide so that will never die, it is the consumer that has to be aware of a CC rebill. that is standard now on billing on all transactions /TV/INTERNET/...

do any of you get rebilled on your ISP or simular things like pagers/servers? same shit~new name -- it is here to stay and charge backs are the reason why..if you can dispute it you get your money back.. shit
I got craps load of CB'S from ibill this month and not happy but you dont see IBILL in some FTC battle..???


but the DIALER.. that is going to be a problem for all to come....

wetdog

[whatever]

As far as rebilling for pagers/Isp's and other legit services, it is an accepted practice only when the consumer is not decived into the rebilling contract.

We ALL KNOW that the 'trial memberships' and the 'free memberships' as there to bait the consumer into giving his credit card # so we can rebill him for the rest of his life unless he cancels.


The problem here isn't with recurring billing itself... Its the fact that the merchants are not CLEARLY DISCLOSING the terms of the billing proccess...

they are trying to disguise it as a free or trial or special offer... this scam is as old as I am, and is aplied in many other areas like magazine sales ect... all of which still imploy the same bait and switch tactic to trcik users into long term subscriptions..

just because 'everyone is doing it' doesn;tmake it ok. I mean I can;t belive that anyone with any common sence at all can;t clearly see whats going on here... Obviosly everyone who reads this board can or you wouldn;t be reading this... you would be a consumer.. but your not.. cause your just a little bit smarter than the rest...so you are praying on other peoples dumbness...

I say you... but I also am in this bussiness...

so I should say we...

I am saying that we should all stop trying to make ourselves feal better about this.. and just start conducting bussiness on a more ethical and straight forward level.

I realise you people are just the resellers...

Its not your fault... its the guys who provide you with the programs who all need to change the way they do things...

they will all have to weather they like it or not aparently...

[richard]

whatever, just out of interest, what sites do you run and who are you?

You think you know what you are talking about, so do i, but i have a question i cannot answer.

With audiotext, ie phone sex, why is there not the same shit going on?

What stops a minor calling an obscene phone sex line, from his parent's or from a friend's house?

How does that industry get around the FTC?

I assume that it does happen, but not on the same scale.

Thanks.

Richard.

[Bright Red]

Does anybody know if the September checks will be cleared or will they bounce?

or a matter of fact does anybody know if we will get our October checks?

[whatever]

Richard,

to answer your question,

The same problem aplies to both industries yes, But the volume from the internet dialers is MUCH higher than anyone is doing with print advertising of phone sex numbers. Plus the internet dialers have all chosen to take INTERNATIONAL phone routes rather than use domestic 900 platforms that are already highly regulated and can be easily blocked from a consumers phone and also alow the user easy no hassle refunds if they complain.
These guys running these international dialers are praying on the fact that people won't read the warnings and won't realize they are getting billed 7 dollars a minute!

I mean I think it has been said here enough but honestly who in there right mind would pay 7 bux a minute for porn?

NO ONE!

actualy I belive the number is about 30% don't realize they are getting billed on the current dialer models that people have been using... thats according to AT&T records submited to the FTC

what will happen as I said is a new reasonable price modle will be issued that is fair to the consumer but still allows us to make a profit. But they will also have to have CLEAR disclosers to the end users on price and many other features.


Anyway.. any type of ruling they make on this will affect the audio text market as well
You can be sure they will fight it to the end....

After all you are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars at stake here...

I think someone else said it too....

what about AT&T in all of this

they knew and know this shit is going on..

and they still continue to bill consumers...

Why not use an already regualted domestic route and then everyone would have to play by the rules... Plus AT&T's cut is MUCH MUCH less on domestic...

wonder if that could have something to do with it...

hhahaha

The real bad guy here is AT&T and the other major phone companies who have struck up these deals with these guys....

I hope you all realize that

the internet dialer software does have REAL WORLD MERIT though... It could be used in many other aplications as an alternative billing method for all kinds of information services.. So its not going to disapear... its just going to get much more USER friendly...


The U.K. already has guidelines that all internet dialer software must follow. I suspect the U.S. will adopt similar guidelines in the comming months.

[richard]

thats what i thought.

I've said all along, dialers are not going to disapear.

In my opinion, i believe a similar premium rate system will be setup in the USA as is currently in operation in the UK, following the same / similar guidelines.

To fill those who are not familiar with it, you can chose a caller tariff from 10p/minute to £1.50/minute.

For those who think porn is coming to an end, why were only RJB lynched? why not any of the other 5 or so major players?

If recurring billing, free trial memberships, etc etc were said to be illegal, why not indict all the big guys?

Richard.

[whatever]

richard,

The way the proccess works...

They go after one guy... the bigest fish...


and then they goto court...

if they win they establish a precident, and all the others must follow it or they will end up in court as well...

If they do not win... then everyone continues on with life as normal...

they can't take 5 guys to court at once over something they have never tried before...

[candidpublishinginc]

Originally posted by cashrat:
Look dumbass when did I inform you of my business pratices?I think never.

I've seen you talk about this dialer and that. I guess you didn't figure out what I ment huh? I know as much about your business practices, as you do with maxcash's.

Once again, just shut the fuck up you small time fuck. Don't go talking shit about a sponsor you have no clue about.

[eRock]

Sonicpuke...when you buy somethin' at the store & there's a sign that says "no returns after 10 days" & you bring back the 11th day & they say "sorry...too bad". Does it make it illegal business practces cuz you didn't read or see the sign or it listed on the receipt? No. It's the responsibilty of the consumer to pay attention. And as far as if kids use the dialer or surf on free sites, the parents should be taking some kinda interest in their childrens' actions instead of letting the computer babysitting them! Yes...I agree that it should not be made easy for children to find this stuff & we should try & make it harder, but c'mon, man...it's also not our responosiblity to do every parents job!

[boneyard]

everyone is missing a much bigger picture.
it's not about the dialers.
it's not about rebilling.
it's about finding a way to get total control of what happens on the net...the u.s. gov is searching for a way to regulate and control cyberspace,this is just the latest thing.
copa was and is another attempt at that.
the net is a wildcard they cant currently control and they want to tighten the reigns on it.

in the past the gov has used the tactic of "becoming aware of mass fraud and deception in an industry" therefore "creating the need for strict laws and regulation"..wether or not the fraud actually exists does not matter.

then the need for consumer alerts becomes apparent and john Q public statrts seeing "be cautious while on the net" shit,all sponsored by the gov.after a while that takes hold and the unwashed starts agreeing and all of a sudden theres a few voices crying loudly for an end to the madness.the politicians hapilly give them what they want a little bit at a time so as not to cause to big an outcry.

thats called "hagelian principle"
create the need
arouse the people to the need
create the solution to the need(regulation)

welcome to the peoples republic of the united states of america.
and before you ask.i live here.

[sonicpuke]

when you buy somethin' at the store & there's a sign that says "no returns after 10 days" & you bring back the 11th day & they say "sorry...too bad". Does it make it illegal business practces cuz you didn't read or see the sign or it listed on the receipt? No.

Big difference Erock.
1 When you buy something at the store you are getting a tangible product. (something you can touch and keep.)
2 When buying at a store you ALWAYS know you are BUYING something. (You can claim these guys know to but some don't. Checking a box and actually buying something at a store are TOTALLY different. Checking a box is not buying anything)
Being charged $7 per minute for a nontangible website access and buying an actual product are totally different and have NOTHING in common. Even in the case you mention they have 10 days to return it. The surfer has NO WAY to get a refund for his MINUTES of web access.
3 The government is just looking for an excuse to go after us. Now they have one ;( The never did convict Al Capone for the murders he commited or the money he stole. (But they knew that he was committing crimes.) They found ANY TECHNICALLITY they could find to convict him of SOMETHING, ANYTHING (They got him for tax evasion.) Now these shady dealings with the dialers have given them the perfect excuse. Now they start at the top with the biggest paysite around. All in an attempt to shut us down. Notice that while it is about the dialers they mention credit cards and every other halfway questionable practice RJB uses. People want to say "See it not just the dialers it cc and everything".
Well I notice that RJB DROPPED thier dialer yet credit card sales are still being accepted. The dialers brought this whole thing down on RJB and if you want to ignore it then whatever. It's too obvious why this all happened. The dialers.

the parents should be taking some kinda interest in their childrens' actions instead of letting the computer babysitting them!

You may be 100% right about this erock but it gives you no right to bill the parents phone. In america it's also illegal to use child labor. It makes no difference how good or bad of parents the kids have. It's STILL ILLEGAL to use child labor. We protect kids in america no matter how bad thier parents are. The fact that thier parents aren't watching them is no excuse to abuse them in any way. Noone is asking you to babysit children. Just don't exploit them.

Boneyard. You seem to understand the obvious. SO many people just don't seem to get it.

[Tam]

boneyard.. I totally agree...... and all it takes is one poor sap to scream "I was robbed" and everyone starts going fucking mad...... just like the school shootings.... kids see it, the attention it gets, they wanna get in on the spotlight....... men with hard dicks, tell others with hard dicks about sites they see and it's cool as shit because you can just charge the shit...... so they go home and they do it........

THEN you have this guys wife finding bills on the CC and the hard dick goes limp and then in comes the "I didn't do it" shit and that starts a whole other ball rolling and a whole other scam going on.

Frivolous lawsuits... lady sues because the coffee she bought burned her.... give me a fucking break......... I am dying of cancer because I didn't know that smoking caused cancer..... again, give me a fucking break...... ONE outcry can cause the whole damn country to go into a screaming panic.

I didn't do it, musta been my kid, or my nephew and his friends when they were here...... Oh shit.... wait a minute, I did give them my CC number but I didn't know they were going to charge anything to it....... recurring? What the hell is that, I thought I could just give them my CC # and jump right in and view all this shit for free... no one told me it was ging to cost anything..... Oh and yes I did order that pay per view movie.... but I can't TOUCH it so I'll scream I didn't get to see it and I won't be charged, even though I taped the whole damn thing and can watch it whenever I want!!

People PLEASE!!!!!! WE are responsible for ourselves and if we can't control ourselves then we scream that it is someone else's fault... when are we going to take responsibility for our own actions? You pay for SERVICES every damn day..... Oh but wait, I can't touch it so I can just yell that I didn't do it or if I did, I didn't receive said services... this is such a damn copout!!!

I subscribe to cable, isn't this a SERVICE?? I can't touch it, I can't pick it up and play with it... so why am I spending $60 a month on this shit..... and what the hell.. it's recurring? Oh my god!! And wait!! So is my electric bill.... and my phone bill? I think I will sue all these places!!

So sorry if I sound bitter... but we are all ADULTS and we are responsible for our own actions and the actions of our children!! If we don't want kids doing this, then WE pay the damn bill and punish the child for doing it and see that it damn well doesn't happen again. When did we stop being responsible for our actions and making the government responsible for us...... oh but wait...... We want the government to control this, but what business do they have controling that??
the government is just like anyone else, give them an inch, they take a mile.. and if you don't want them controling you then YOU CONTROL YOU!!

Sorry if I sound bitter, but this is all getting rather old!!

Tam

[boneyard]

thanks sonic...dont take this personal because i dont mean it in a malicious way but i find you agreeing with me a little disturbing http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

i use dialers on every site i have.

you still focus on the dialers and the cc...it's not about that,that's just the means to an end that's been chosen by the gov.
if that doesnt work they'll choose another means.

[sonicpuke]

In all the examples you mention the person involved actually knew they were subscribing to something. (It's a big difference from a suprise bill on your phone bill) Also cable tv doesn't charge $7 per minute.
And if by some chance a CHILD had signed up for one of these services and contract they signed would be VOID. Children cannot sign a legal contract or be bound by one.

The fact that it's a non-tangible product just makes it harder to prove in court.

Erock mentioned a 10 day refund policy that has NOTHING to do with this.

Cable tv or pay per view has nothing to do with it either. A child cannot buy cable tv (And certainly not by clicking a button on his/her computer.)

Tam should we just do away with the child labor laws and child porn laws since parent who let thier children get involved in this obviously don't care? Hell no. Children aren't there to be exploited and just because parents aren't watching make NO DIFFERENCE. Children are gulible and people try to take advantage. The whole point was that if you come up with a billing system that allows children to sign up you have NO WAY to enforce a contract on them (As if you had one anyways.) Children are not there to be exploited and if they stray away from thier parents supervision gives you NO RIGHT to bill thier parents phone bill. You Tam are the one who needs to take responsibility and do the right thing. The government is making it clear that these dialers are illegal yet you conintinue to use them and are breaking the law KNOWINGLY. Take responsibility for THAT. Or is it just other parents that need to take more responsibility here.

And don't act like you are providing a service with these dialers. It's nothing but a drain into someones bank acount.
They are looking for an excuse to get us and now they have one.

Talk about taking responsibility. These dialers are using deceptive and overpriced billing practices but YOU take NO responsibility.

Boneyard. I was just saying. The government is just LOOKING for something, ANYTHING that is illegal in ANY WAY to get us with. These dialers are the perfect thing for them in so many ways.

People who blame thier customers for deceptive billing practices are blind to the laws of fair trade. There is no comparison to a shop owner with a 10 day refund policy.

Boneyard what do you find so disturbing? That I tried to tell people that the FTC would use this as an excuse to try and shut us down and now they have? So many people are against porn out there and if they can find the SMALLEST technicallity to show that we are breaking the law bet your ass they will use it.

Use the dialers at risk of ALL our jobs. What disturbs me is that after all that has happened so many people continue to use the dialers. Just because you make money from it doesn't mean it's legal. Already one big sponser is under fire. I guess we just wait until EVERY SINGLE SOURCE of revenue from adult porn is gone before stopping using dialers right?

I said that this would affect the whole industry. Now the biggest name in porn is under fire.

What the hell are you waiting to see? Every single site out of bussiness?

[richard]

*yawn*

knock it off guys.

we have covered this ground so many times.

[Tam]

sonic, if you are so worried about the kids, then get out of the porn business.... selling porn is selling porn... are you quite certain that those who use their mom's cc's are not kids that signup under you? NO!! If you are so damn sure of yourself and so worried about the kids........... then get out of the porn business..... then and only then do you have the right to throw stones at those of us who are doing the same thing.

As for your child porn and do I agree with it thing? Don't even go there with me, babe.... not a good idea. http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

Rich... I totally agree and I am done with this and even thinking of getting on anyone's case who refuses to see that he himself is no better than I am, he pushes porn, same as I do and same as anyone ehere. So with that I rest my case and am done with these talks. http://adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/wink.gif

Tam

[eRock]

The whole 10 day return policy was just an example of how this all relates to everyday life. Just how you're relating child labor laws. The comparison is that everything's in black & white for the surfer to see...if they don't read what's gonna happen or how much it'll cost, well...I guess it's there problem then. No one hid it from them...
How do you expect to make any money Sonic? Maybe I just don't get your way of thinking here.

[chimp]

Richard -
With regards to 900 numbers...
Here are some of the key provisions from a couple of FTC brochures released in 1993 on the topic of 900 numbers
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/predawn/F93/broch-9003.htm
and another
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/predawn/F93/rule-900.htm

Basically they say that you have to tell the person on the phone how much they are going to be charged and then give them a chance to hang up before charging begins.

I'm guessing that eventually the FTC will step in and assign a similar set of rules in regards to dialers. This is all speculation of course. If I remember correctly, a few BBSes were doing something similar to this back in the 80s...where the user would call an international number to get access to the BBS where they could download pr0n. I don't know what happened there. I'm also unclear about what the rules are with international phone sex numbers.

Here is an FTC link to what happened in 1997 with the 'Muldovan Dialer Scam'.
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/1997/9711/audiot-2.htm
Here's the good part:
"The FTC received valuable assistance from AT&T’s office of Network Security in spotting and investigating this alleged scam." I bet they did...

Anyway, from what I understood about this whole thing, the two main problems the FTC had with dialers was:
a) The 'modem hijacking' part of it, which no one does anymore
b) Saying that access is free

In speaking with the people at the dialer company we went through (not just a reseller), they were working 'hand in hand' with the FTC to ensure that there were no problems. From everything they told me, the FTC had no problems with what they were doing. And remember, its not the actual dialers that FTC has the problem with so much anymore. Its the billing companies that were short stopping or the resellers that proclaim that their dialers are 'free'. They also told me that anyone disputing charges got their money back if they could come up with a decent reason. This is why I didn't feel so badly about it. Believe me, both my business partner and I had MAJOR reservations about using dialers when we first got them in 1999 and knew how much they were charging.

whatever is absolutely right about the fact that AT&T are being complete bastards about all of this. They take a $3 a minute cut, at least on the US routes, and they know EXACTLY what is going on. They stand to lose a lot on this deal, but they also don't want to look like the bad guys.

I think he's also right on in anticipating the eventual rate cut on US dialer calls. I don't think the dialers are going away, but rather will adapt and take what they can get from this line of business. It has the potential to be a completely legit way for people to get porn without credit cards AND without pissing anyone off. And yes, it can still make money :) There's a dialer company now that has US routes that charge only 60 cents per minute. I believe its even a local call.

This will all get worked out soon enough I imagine. Thanks, FTC. Wankers :)

I'm sure everyone is sick to death of hearing about this anymore. I know I am, and that's my last post on the subject.