TIBS/SmoothContent shave your stats..

[daveknell]

After various enquiries from our clients (and our clients' client), I signed up for a TIBS dialer this morning to allow me to check it out. The online builder worked fine, although it took a while before the dialer worked.

Here's some thoughts and comments, in no particular order. My test calls (from the UK) were not reported correctly - they were reported as being about 30 seconds shorter than they actually were. TIBS are only reporting the duration of the call from the time that the dialer logs in, rather than the time that the call is answered - and a V.90 modem negotiation takes around 30 seconds. So, if you're using their dialer, you're losing 30 seconds off each of your UK calls - and probably from all other countries too.

It also would appear that they've been dressing up their international US route as something it isn't. It'd appear to be a Sao Tome termination - which gets short-stopped in Lisbon, and so is open to exactly the same FTC action as happened with Verity and Madagascar. I'm open to correction on this if I've got it wrong.

And this stuff about how it's somehow "safer" and better for webmasters to be paid 30+ days in arrears than 0 days in arrears leaves me befuddled. It's essentially moving the financial risk of a route going down or a telco not paying from the dialer company to the webmaster. If, however, any of our clients would feel more comfortable (and confident of being paid) with bi-weekly payments with a 30 day hold rather than the current weekly payments with 0 hold, we'll be happy to oblige.

However, some congratulations are in order. We launched our browser-dialers in June 2001, and they're the first people to competently copy it. Pity a) that the broadband access method would appear to infringe our US patent, and b) that we've moved on..

--Dave

[daveknell]

As I've been asked this twice privately, I thought I'd post it publically. To check if your call durations are reported correctly:
- download the dialer and make a call
- start timing when you hear the first modem chirp from the far end
- disconnect 60 seconds later: that's a 60 second call
- see what it shows up as in the stats.

--Dave

[PeterP]

Well I really don’t know what brought this on Dave my only guess is that you are sore because some of your customers have moved away from you.

If I can avoid it I have no intention of sitting on here and slagging you or your company, or for that matter any other dialer company even though it seems that some of you think that the way to promote your company is by attacking others. We promote our company on the merits of our product, I am just sorry that you do not feel you can do the same.

So ok the issues you raised.

Shaving.......... this implies we deliberately remove 30 seconds from each of our customers call records you know well that saying we shave calls is a complete and utter lie ...
We pay our customers from the second their call is authenticated and therefore from the second we know it’s their dialer. Dave you know how radius works because you have done it this way for years yourself (I was a customer of yours for years btw).

Shaving is a purposeful act of fraud against a customer, we have never done it here and never will.

At this point in time I plan not to ever make any accusations here against a competitor but if I was to I would also publish proof, and I can.

Ok Sao Tome, as our customers already know on Friday night we lost access to our US route temporarily due to a major systems breakdown in the Pacific region. Sao Tome was added to the dialer on Friday as a temporary measure to allow our web masters to continue making money from the US. Sao Tome is always going to be a temporary measure and I would have thought that you could have worked that out for yourself especially given that we all know Sao Tome pays around 30c per minutes and as you know we pay 40-42c per minute for the USA.

Yes that’s right we are paying the additional 10-12c out of our own pocket because we value our clients.

We pay bi-monthly on a 30 day hold that is fact, what is also fact that many of our customers say the reason they use us in not because of the payment terms but simply because they earn more money. It’s as simple as that.

Ok the dialer.

YES Dave we went for a browser-based dialer and for what it’s worth I always used your browser-based dialer when I was a reseller for your product and preferred it to your other. However the actual reason we went for a browser based dialer was because our method of creating a walled galled is best suited to a browser based dialer. Our ADSL/LAN solution uses the same software that we use for the walled garden. Not sure how we could have breached a Patent when we used free to download Linux software.

Dave the bottom line here really is this, people who prefer your dialer will use it and webmasters who prefer ours will use ours. Don't you think that is the way it should be? I for one do.

Dave, let this end now we do our best to supply a quality service to webmasters and resellers and I am sure you do also. So lets just compete based on the product and services we offer and not who can create the most damning accusation.

[candidpublishinginc]

Dave,

They're not using Sao Tome for their U.S. termination, they're using Cook Island billed by Sprint. (Last I checked 2 weeks ago)

Sao Tome doesn't even have that high of a payout.

Although I agree with you most of the time, I don't think it's really professional to slam a competitor like TIBS unless they were slamming you......and if they were....slam away :)

[candidpublishinginc]

Originally posted by daveknell
As I've been asked this twice privately, I thought I'd post it publically. To check if your call durations are reported correctly:
- download the dialer and make a call
- start timing when you hear the first modem chirp from the far end
- disconnect 60 seconds later: that's a 60 second call
- see what it shows up as in the stats.

--Dave

Dave that's bullshit and you know it.

Radius doesn't start timing the call UNTIL the authentication process is complete.

So if you start counting when the first modem chirp starts, your time would be off from the time on your stats.

If you count the call length AFTER the call is connected, you will have a more accurate answer.

EVERY DIALER I've tried starts logging the call AFTER the dialer has been authenticated and logged in. It's IMPOSSIBLE log the time before authentication and you know it, unless you give each webmaster their own phone number.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saving, that's obsurd.

Lets be fair to our competition and not sling mud at them. You're not even following the proper FTC guidelines with Dialer Access so lets stop the mud slinging.

I don't agree with many things TIBS do in terms of disclosures but the same goes for you Dave and you don't see me being an ass about it on the boards.

[unconnected]

Yes, I agree with candid here..
I don't know how anyone of Knell's experience in this business could possibly have the opinions that he does.
You can't start counting at the moment that you hear the tones, that is ridiculous.. I know 60 seconds is a short delay, usually most dialer companies would wait 90 seconds before counting..
They aren't shaving, they are keeping their chargeback rates down..

If someone hangs up in the first 60 seconds, chances are he/she isn't happy with the product or didn't want to connect in the first case... That is why no one counts it, and the chargebacks for domestic routes are reduced drastically..

It isn't shaving, and I dont' know how the hell you could possible think so

[daveknell]

Quite a lot to reply to here. Let's work from the bottom up.

It's entirely possible to pay the webmaster for the full length of the call, not just the bit from where the modems have finished negotiating and the user logs in. I know, as we do just that. How? The modem rack reports both session time (time from login to disconnect) and presession time (time from answer to login) - we just add them up.

Why's this important? Well, our basic rate for UK traffic is about $1.38 per minute at the current exchage rate. If we didn't pay for the first 30 seconds of each call, we could pay $1.50 for each of the remaining minutes and be no worse off. As we're being pressured by clients to increase rates to match those being offered elsewhere, it's important to ensure that the rest of the playing field is level.

So, Peter and Candid, I guess you'll both now be updating your stats systems to pay your webmasters for every minute they generate?!

More generally, I feel that there's been a lot of misinformation propogated by those selling TIBS. Such as:
Integretel are about to stop billing (AT&T) 900 - not so, according to Integretel.
Using the Cook Islands as an international termination point from the US is a safe billing option, immune from FTC action. Not so.
Calls to the Cook Islands are cheap. The rates I've found on Sprint's site range from $7.85 to $11.46 per minute, which hardly fits that definition.
Offering weekly payment is irresponsible, and will result in our not paying our clients, going bust, etc. Hasn't yet, and it does show we have some relatively serious capital invested in the business to allow us to do it.

Peter - I'm more than happy to compete based on products, services, truth, fairness and comparing like with like. And, to be fair, none of the general disinformation appears to have come from you, but from someone who works for/with you. Good luck with your venture - and, no, we haven't noticed an effect on our traffic levels yet ;-)

--Dave

[daveknell]

Originally posted by unconnected
Yes, I agree with candid here..
I don't know how anyone of Knell's experience in this business could possibly have the opinions that he does.
You can't start counting at the moment that you hear the tones, that is ridiculous.. I know 60 seconds is a short delay, usually most dialer companies would wait 90 seconds before counting..
They aren't shaving, they are keeping their chargeback rates down..

If someone hangs up in the first 60 seconds, chances are he/she isn't happy with the product or didn't want to connect in the first case... That is why no one counts it, and the chargebacks for domestic routes are reduced drastically..

It isn't shaving, and I dont' know how the hell you could possible think so

That's a very US-centric view. Chargebacks simply are not an issue across most of Europe - there is (for example) no mechanism for a UK surfer to charge a call back. They start paying from the moment the modem answers the phone, we get paid from the moment the modem answers the phone, so is it not right and proper that we should pay our clients from the same moment?

As for the US, you're right - we wouldn't submit a billing record for a per-minute call under a certain duration - the surfer wouldn't be billed at all. BUT we would still pay the webmaster: we offered them a rate per minute of traffic generated, and that's exactly how we paid them.

Very strange. I seem to be defending our policy of paying out more than it'd appear we have to.

--Dave

[candidpublishinginc]

Originally posted by daveknell
Quite a lot to reply to here. Let's work from the bottom up.

It's entirely possible to pay the webmaster for the full length of the call, not just the bit from where the modems have finished negotiating and the user logs in. I know, as we do just that. How? The modem rack reports both session time (time from login to disconnect) and presession time (time from answer to login) - we just add them up.

Well in that sort of manner I guess it would be possible to record the complete call as long as the user successfully authenticates. If he doesn't, the webmaster is still out of luck.

Either way though, stating that a dialer company is shaving because they don't record the presession time is absurd.

The session starts when the surfer is authenticated and that's when he can view the content....I don't see anything wrong with actually starting to pay a webmaster out during that time period since that's when the surfer can actually view the content.

If you really want to be picky here Dave, why do you pay your webmasters out by the second when all calls are rounded up to the next full minute on the surfer's phone call? Based on your logic that would be shaving too.

For example, if you're paying out 50 cents a minute and the surfer stays for 40 seconds you pay the webmaster 33 cents. However the call is rounded up to the next FULL minute, thus you get 1 full minute on the payout but only pay for 40 seconds

Of course EVERY dialer company I know pays by the second.

So in short....you're making a HUGE deal over nothing and just want to sling mud on them.

Originally posted by daveknell
More generally, I feel that there's been a lot of misinformation propogated by those selling TIBS. Such as:
Integretel are about to stop billing (AT&T) 900 - not so, according to Integretel.

Who said that? I haven't heard anyone saying this. Funny how you seemed to skip past my comment in regards you not following complete FTC guidelines for pay per call 900.

The FTC had explicit rules on what has to be done, there was NO gray area.

Originally posted by daveknell
Using the Cook Islands as an international termination point from the US is a safe billing option, immune from FTC action. Not so. Calls to the Cook Islands are cheap. The rates I've found on Sprint's site range from $7.85 to $11.46 per minute, which hardly fits that definition.

I'll agree with you there, if Sprint's website is in fact up to date....Cook Island is a bit on the pricey side.

[candidpublishinginc]

Also another thing I'd like to add.

If Cook Island costs 7 + dollars a minute, keep in mind it's Sprint fucking the consumer....not smooth content.

They're the ones keeping the 7 + dollars a minute, SC only see's around 50 cents a minute from the terminating carrier.

U.S. is the only country where basic rates are spiked so much. If the caller has an international calling plan in the U.S. a call to Cook Island would cost around $1.50 a minute.

The U.S. phone companies spike the rates 300% for basic rates.

In Canada a call to Sao Tome with basic rates is around 3 dollars a minute Canadian. In the U.S. it costs almost 8 dollars a minute with basic rates.

So the real crooks are the U.S. telcoms when it comes to international billing.

Since Sprint seems to have a special deal going with Cook Island and using their 1010333 kickcode, I hope that they decided to lower their rates for a call to Cook.

[daveknell]

If you really want to be picky here Dave, why do you pay your webmasters out by the second when all calls are rounded up to the next full minute on the surfer's phone call? Based on your logic that would be shaving too.

For example, if you're paying out 50 cents a minute and the surfer stays for 40 seconds you pay the webmaster 33 cents. However the call is rounded up to the next FULL minute, thus you get 1 full minute on the payout but only pay for 40 seconds

Of course EVERY dialer company I know pays by the second.

Again, that's a completely US-specific view. I don't think there's a single other country from which payments to us are made on the basis of call durations rounded up to the nearest minute. Billing this side of the pond is almost always per-second, as are our payments from the various carriers we work with. You, of all people, ought to know that.

Believe it or not, we had a fair old debate as to whether to round up US calls to the nearest minute in our reporting and payments system as billing is per-minute. We decided against, mostly on the basis that we were already paying out on a completely different basis to the one we were getting paid on.

FTC - stuff is happening. Watch this space.

And, as for the presession time thing being a huge fuss about nothing, our paying it results in our paying our clients some hundreds of thousands of dollars more per month than we would otherwise. Obviously I'm not as wealthy as you ;-)

--Dave

[daveknell]

Originally posted by candidpublishinginc
Also another thing I'd like to add.

If Cook Island costs 7 + dollars a minute, keep in mind it's Sprint fucking the consumer....not smooth content.

They're the ones keeping the 7 + dollars a minute, SC only see's around 50 cents a minute from the terminating carrier.

Absolutely - couldn't agree more. But it's not Sprint going around telling webmasters it's a cheap call for the surfer, and it's not Sprint not giving the surfer any idea at all as to what it's going to cost, and it's not Sprint who don't even tell the caller what number's about to be dialed, to give them a chance - even if they might not be inclined to take it - to look up the rate.

--Dave

[candidpublishinginc]

Originally posted by daveknell

You, of all people, ought to know that.


Considering that 95% of our traffic is U.S. right now, no I may not have known that.

However I was under the impression that UK premium rate minutes were rounded up to the next minute.

[daveknell]

Considering that 95% of our traffic is U.S. right now, no I may not have known that.

However I was under the impression that UK premium rate minutes were rounded up to the next minute.

Not sure UK PRS was ever rounded up to the next minute, and it certainly isn't now. Pity - an extra 30 seconds (on average) on each call would be handy (that's handy spelt 'F-e-r-r-a-r-i' ;-))

--Dave

[candidpublishinginc]

Originally posted by daveknell


Not sure UK PRS was ever rounded up to the next minute, and it certainly isn't now. Pity - an extra 30 seconds (on average) on each call would be handy (that's handy spelt 'F-e-r-r-a-r-i' ;-))

--Dave

Well thanks for the correction Dave. I'll keep that in mind when it comes to per minute billing to coutries other than the U.S.

I always just assumed the rounding up part and never really paid attention to the international payouts and mainly focusing on U.S. When we get out of beta this will of course change.

Obviously since you do live in the UK and handle a nice size of international min, you'd probably have more experience in this field. :)

[PeterP]

it's not Sprint not giving the surfer any idea at all as to what it's going to cost, and it's not Sprint who don't even tell the caller what number's about to be dialed, to give them a chance - even if they might not be inclined to take it - to look up the rate.

Dave

Just looked at your dialer, for coutries where you use an international number YOU dont display the number called or the cost, you just say International Call Charges Apply which is what we also do.

But hey thats ok anyway because I am leaving you to the "Slagging off of a competitor" side of this discussion (if you can call it a discussion) after all this thread is all about the things you dont like about me and my dialer.

I will once again ask, can you please just get on with running your own business and leave me to run mine.

To be honest with you and you may think this is quite pathetic but all this bothers me, I HAVE NEVER called you or product to anyone ever.... and still dont intend to. All I ask from you is the same professional courtesy that I allow you.

Just get on with your business, if your dialer is truly the best the webmasters and resellers out there will work it out for themselves. THEY ARE CAPABLE OF THAT.

[Dcorp]

someone said "ferrari" ?
cool

[Dcorp]

(out of topic)

Peter

please icq me
i think Nik told you about me.

[daveknell]

Originally posted by PeterP

Just looked at your dialer, for coutries where you use an international number YOU dont display the number called or the cost, you just say International Call Charges Apply which is what we also do.

Oh, bollocks. You're absolutely right. I'll get my coat..

Actually, I might just fix this. Can't really see any good reason not to display the number to be dialled as part of the pre-call stuff, and there are good reasons to display it.

--Dave

[PeterP]

Yeah we have just set ours to display the number being dialed for all countires. It will be live in the next rebuild.