Legal Issues of Galleries/TGPs [Archive] - Adult Webmaster Info BBS

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WiredGuy

03-30-2002, 10:35 AM

Hi, This post is directed towards gallery makers/tgp owners. First off, we all know showing adult content to minors is a criminal violation. Secondly, showing a warning message that you must be 18+ is not sufficient since minors can still enter without any verification and in fact minors can't enter into a contract so warnings from a legal perspective, a warning page means nothing. Lastly, forcing a credit card verification for galleries is nonsense since nobody would enter their CC number for this. Given these facts, how can one promote galleries or even link to a gallery (ie: TGP) legally? Seems to me that any gallery owner or TGP owner is at high risk of violating exposing minors to pornography. Can anybody advise on this? WG

stramm

03-30-2002, 10:37 AM

I'm not from Canada but as far as I know you're allowed to have an adult site there as long as you've got a warning page.

WiredGuy

03-30-2002, 11:03 AM

Well, even in the US/Canada I would imagine this isn't enough (I talked to a lawyer about it), because minors can't enter a legal agreement and that's what the warning is. And on top of that, there needs to be an active role in age verifying (a warning is a passive role). Basically, its like a bouncer at a strip club, he actually looks at ID (active role) versus just asking, are you 18, ok go in (to everyone including 10 year olds). WG

Jorge

03-30-2002, 11:54 AM

I am not common law system specialist but some general thoughts from the European (continental) point of view. I bet it is the same / similar within your system. 1. minors are able to enter into legal contract (they go to cinema, they drive cars, they buy shoes, they travel ... right?). even before you left your mother´s vagina, you had been able to enter into some legal contracts (nasciturus). 2. I am not showing porn to minors. In fact, I have no idea / physical control to know who is browsing my pages. Adults can visit my sites, *ONLY* if they are actively looking for adult content. Links to my site lead only from adult oriented sites, I do not advertise / bid / optimize pages for NON adult keywords. I am not interested, and I have no benefit from minors visiting my sites and/or people who are NOT interested in viewing porn. 3. MOST IMPORTANT : I cannot act in behalf of parents who are responsible for their children. Unlike them, my ability to control them is minimal. 4. I *really* think that watching pics cannot spoil / deviate / harm that kind of people searching for pink (pubescent+). But that´s only my liberal opinion.

basschick

03-30-2002, 12:38 PM

the laws in the u.s. regarding the internet are not really defined yet at this time. the way a lot of attorneys that specialize in internet and sexual material see it, nothing will be enough. right now, the u.s. is on a witch hunt, and the thing protecting porn is the right to free speech. our government is attacking that over and over, but so far organizations like the ACLA and the fact that a lot of judges believe keeps free speech safe. even a censored paysite promo with all the rest of the stuff in a member area (congress says a credit card number is enough for now) wouldn't be enough if ashcroft has his way - he doesn't want to protect minors, he wants to stop porn - period.

playa

03-30-2002, 01:41 PM

from what i remember from the previous COPA law,,, they turned it down because something like porn will not just jump in your face on the internet,,, you have to specifically look for it,,, and also its the parents or guardians that are responisible to protect the kids by monitoring or installing filter software,,,, as of right now you don't have a warning/consent page at all,,, its just a standard process that webmasters did when making free sites

WiredGuy

03-30-2002, 02:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jorge: 1. minors are able to enter into legal contract (they go to cinema, they drive cars, they buy shoes, they travel ... right?). even before you left your mother´s vagina, you had been able to enter into some legal contracts (nasciturus). 2. I am not showing porn to minors. In fact, I have no idea / physical control to know who is browsing my pages. Adults can visit my sites, *ONLY* if they are actively looking for adult content. Links to my site lead only from adult oriented sites, I do not advertise / bid / optimize pages for NON adult keywords. I am not interested, and I have no benefit from minors visiting my sites and/or people who are NOT interested in viewing porn. 3. MOST IMPORTANT : I cannot act in behalf of parents who are responsible for their children. Unlike them, my ability to control them is minimal. 4. I *really* think that watching pics cannot spoil / deviate / harm that kind of people searching for pink (pubescent+). But that´s only my liberal opinion.<hr /></blockquote>1) None of these are legal contracts. You can get a drivers license but can't drive without insurance (which requires a legal contract to be signed by parents). 2) This is similiar to entering a strip club. The bouncer could just let anyone in or what is usually required, checking their ID's to ensure 18+. 3) You are not acting on behalf of parents but rather are acting within the confines of the law. You are required (according to my lawyer) to verify ages for any adult entertainment products/services you sell. It's just like buying porn mags at a local 711, the vendor has to make sure your 18+ before letting you buy them. 4) I agree with your opinion, but before promoting free porn I need to be strictly aware of the legal requirements. WG

WiredGuy

03-30-2002, 02:21 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by basschick: the laws in the u.s. regarding the internet are not really defined yet at this time. the way a lot of attorneys that specialize in internet and sexual material see it, nothing will be enough. right now, the u.s. is on a witch hunt, and the thing protecting porn is the right to free speech. our government is attacking that over and over, but so far organizations like the ACLA and the fact that a lot of judges believe keeps free speech safe. even a censored paysite promo with all the rest of the stuff in a member area (congress says a credit card number is enough for now) wouldn't be enough if ashcroft has his way - he doesn't want to protect minors, he wants to stop porn - period.<hr /></blockquote>Ashcroft is a bit of an anti-porn activist. I remember watching a program that said that the 9/11 events actually helped the porn industry since Ashcroft backed off from porn lawsuits and decided to focus on national security. Either way, I'm sure within 2-3 years, he'll be back at it. WG

AgentCash

03-30-2002, 02:39 PM

A bit? A BIT??? That's like saying Peep's a bit of a board whore... or toker's a bit high... or Lucian's a bit of a dumbass... Ashcroft is one scary motherfucker. <a href="http://www.failureisimpossible.com/needtoknow/ashcroft.htm" target="_blank">http://www.failureisimpossible.com/needtoknow/ashcroft.htm</a>

toker

03-30-2002, 02:51 PM

Im retired but i may come into active duty soon.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

WiredGuy

03-30-2002, 07:07 PM

Ok, ashcroft is insane :-) Not just anti-porn but everything else. Either way, what about the main issue proposed here about the legalities of kids viewing our online porn for free without age verification. Anybody have a solution around this? Or is every gallery/TGP webmaster just not really caring about this legal issue? WG

flyingiguana

03-30-2002, 07:44 PM

its up to the parents of those minors to try to stop them from looking at porn. which would be an impossible task if the minor really wanted porn. there's much better places than websites to get porn. its impossible to verify age on a website the same way you can at a strip club. you can try, but it wouldn't make much of a difference.

flyingiguana

03-30-2002, 07:48 PM

no website is breaking the law by not having an age verification system in place. there isn't a law that says u have to.

SexySites

03-30-2002, 08:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AgentCash: [QB]A bit? A BIT??? That's like saying Peep's a bit of a board whore... [QB]<hr /></blockquote>damn you got that right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> laters, Chris

playa

03-30-2002, 08:45 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by WiredGuy: Either way, what about the main issue proposed here about the legalities of kids viewing our online porn for free without age verification. Anybody have a solution around this? Or is every gallery/TGP webmaster just not really caring about this legal issue? WG<hr /></blockquote>come on man,, lets face it you know how the internet is,,, you won't find it unless you look for it,,, thats of course you got some non adult type domains like disney and cartoon type stuff.. there is no solution,,,,its impossible,, just like tring to stop underage minors getting a hold of cigerattes or alcohol,,,if they want it then they'll get it,,,,

zubr

03-31-2002, 12:20 AM

with millions of tgps posted, let them go and hunt everyone down... who cares...

WiredGuy

03-31-2002, 01:34 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zubr: with millions of tgps posted, let them go and hunt everyone down... who cares...<hr /></blockquote>When pushing something like this under my company name I care very much. WG

flyingiguana

03-31-2002, 02:27 AM

if ur so worried about it, maybe ur in the wrong business...

LiveDose

03-31-2002, 03:16 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AgentCash: A bit? A BIT??? That's like saying Peep's a bit of a board whore... or toker's a bit high... or Lucian's a bit of a dumbass... Ashcroft is one scary motherfucker. <a href="http://www.failureisimpossible.com/needtoknow/ashcroft.htm" target="_blank">http://www.failureisimpossible.com/needtoknow/ashcroft.htm</a><hr /></blockquote>This liberal rag is kind of like the opposite end of the scale of Ashcroft.... LOL

WiredGuy

03-31-2002, 04:40 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FlyingIguana: if ur so worried about it, maybe ur in the wrong business...<hr /></blockquote>I've been in this biz for quite some time, just promoting paysites which do age verify so I had no worries there. It's all this TGP/Gallery stuff that has me worried but we all know there's plenty of traffic in this market and I wanna grab a share of it. WG

baddog

03-31-2002, 07:51 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AgentCash: A bit? A BIT??? That's like saying Peep's a bit of a board whore... or toker's a bit high... or Lucian's a bit of a dumbass... Ashcroft is one scary motherfucker. <a href="http://www.failureisimpossible.com/needtoknow/ashcroft.htm" target="_blank">http://www.failureisimpossible.com/needtoknow/ashcroft.htm</a><hr /></blockquote><img border="0" alt="[ROTFLMAO]" title="" src="graemlins/rotflmao.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Bounce]" title="" src="graemlins/bounce.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[ROTFLMAO]" title="" src="graemlins/rotflmao.gif" />

Jorge

03-31-2002, 09:22 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by WiredGuy: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jorge: 1. minors are able to enter into legal contract (they go to cinema, they drive cars, they buy shoes, they travel ... right?). even before you left your mother´s vagina, you had been able to enter into some legal contracts (nasciturus). 2. I am not showing porn to minors. In fact, I have no idea / physical control to know who is browsing my pages. Adults can visit my sites, *ONLY* if they are actively looking for adult content. Links to my site lead only from adult oriented sites, I do not advertise / bid / optimize pages for NON adult keywords. I am not interested, and I have no benefit from minors visiting my sites and/or people who are NOT interested in viewing porn. 3. MOST IMPORTANT : I cannot act in behalf of parents who are responsible for their children. Unlike them, my ability to control them is minimal. 4. I *really* think that watching pics cannot spoil / deviate / harm that kind of people searching for pink (pubescent+). But that´s only my liberal opinion.<hr /></blockquote>1) None of these are legal contracts. You can get a drivers license but can't drive without insurance (which requires a legal contract to be signed by parents). 2) This is similiar to entering a strip club. The bouncer could just let anyone in or what is usually required, checking their ID's to ensure 18+. 3) You are not acting on behalf of parents but rather are acting within the confines of the law. You are required (according to my lawyer) to verify ages for any adult entertainment products/services you sell. It's just like buying porn mags at a local 711, the vendor has to make sure your 18+ before letting you buy them. 4) I agree with your opinion, but before promoting free porn I need to be strictly aware of the legal requirements. WG<hr /></blockquote>1 These are contracts. These types of contracts in our system are called "concludent" (a bit of czenglish) ~ implied ~ implied contracts in your system, I guess. I am aware of the fact that minor might not be able to enter this *special* type of contract acc. to your law. There is more questions ... some of them might be pretty funny f.i. what about an illiterate adult entering your adult web site, clicking on "I agree" button? #2#3#4 I understand & I agree. I do have entry pages. Since I usually host my sites on servers in US, and I am a nice customer, I do it as a favor to my hosts ~ I abide both sides of law ~ where I live & where I host. My galleries are accessed through links which are behind warning pages. Some US hosts ask you to put some kind of warning front page on your server, some not (probably depending either on state or their experience). I have never heard about Canadian host requiring front page (but I do not know many) ... Sincerely, I am more worried more about mental health of a guy dressing renaissance statues than horny teenager jerking off. (Yep, I know it is not legal argument, just a spring of fresh mind.)

WiredGuy

03-31-2002, 06:09 PM

Although I agree with most of what was posted here, there's a conflict between making money and our responsibilities as adult webmasters. I know that by displaying a warning on your front pages and TGP sites is a good start, it also makes for a loss in potential revenues if people can't find what they're looking for right away. Besides a warning though, there doesn't seem to be many options. WG

manga

03-31-2002, 06:48 PM

Sounds like you're S.O.L. if you want to get in the TGP game. If you're really that worried about the legality of it then you shouldn't bother with it. Other than the warning page there is nothing stopping kids from accessing your TGP, and galleries don't even have warning pages. So either jump into the TGP game and take your chances, or don't do it at all. Of course you could always do it without using your company name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

WiredGuy

03-31-2002, 09:08 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by manga: Sounds like you're S.O.L. if you want to get in the TGP game. If you're really that worried about the legality of it then you shouldn't bother with it. Other than the warning page there is nothing stopping kids from accessing your TGP, and galleries don't even have warning pages. So either jump into the TGP game and take your chances, or don't do it at all. Of course you could always do it without using your company name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Well, I wouldn't go so far as to not enter the market, it is a very nice market after all :-) But I do have a few ideas to cover my ass. WG

Terrance11

04-01-2002, 06:09 PM

either host your site in the netherlands, or have a warning page... If you host in a country where not having a warning page is illegal, you're taking a risk. The worst that can happen is you'd probably just get shut down (not likely). But you could also get sued (even less likely). But a lot of larger tgps have a warning for that reason... the legal issues.

WiredGuy

04-01-2002, 06:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Terrance11: either host your site in the netherlands, or have a warning page... If you host in a country where not having a warning page is illegal, you're taking a risk. The worst that can happen is you'd probably just get shut down (not likely). But you could also get sued (even less likely). But a lot of larger tgps have a warning for that reason... the legal issues.<hr /></blockquote>Is a warning sufficient? I mean there's lots of steps we as webmasters could take like putting those tags that microsoft made into IE to indicate to browsers this page is of an adult content, put links to netnanny and those other adult filters, bla bla, and that should be more than enough I assume? WG

Terrance11

04-01-2002, 06:16 PM

I'm sure a warning page is enough. But I'm really not sure.

Freakster.net

04-01-2002, 07:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Terrance11: I'm sure a warning page is enough. But I'm really not sure.<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

twobitsgirl

04-01-2002, 08:19 PM

I don't think you have to worry wired guy! Just take a look at the channels availble on cable tv! they have sex tv~baby blue movies; tmn is now showing adult movies; & worse of all they have the pride station for queers which shows more porn & things we would not want kids to see , but they have access to it 24 hours a day Is that right? this causes way more damage than any of our websites. so rest & enjoy with ease:-) In Canada they will only nail those into child porn or rape etc.....If they try to just say queer tv! Are you going to take that off the air? case closed Brantford only 25 minutes from waterloo

Terrance11

04-02-2002, 07:55 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Freak: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Terrance11: I'm sure a warning page is enough. But I'm really not sure.<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>think it's enough, but I'm not sure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

WiredGuy

04-02-2002, 04:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by twobitsgirl: I don't think you have to worry wired guy! Just take a look at the channels availble on cable tv! they have sex tv~baby blue movies; tmn is now showing adult movies; & worse of all they have the pride station for queers which shows more porn & things we would not want kids to see , but they have access to it 24 hours a day Is that right? this causes way more damage than any of our websites. so rest & enjoy with ease:-) In Canada they will only nail those into child porn or rape etc.....If they try to just say queer tv! Are you going to take that off the air? case closed Brantford only 25 minutes from waterloo<hr /></blockquote>Thanks 2bitsgirl. Your in Brantford? I have some friends that live there. Thanks for your help again. WG