[discussion] CP and Anime content, where is the line drawn?

[richard]

Ok, thought i'd kick start a debate on this.

I was surfing for some cartoon content, when i found an anime provider. I checked out some of their images, and you've got all the sci-fi weird stuff, but there was also alot of images of "modals" who clearly looked "underage".

Where does the law stand with these potential "CP" cases, is it illegal to draw CP? Not that i am saying these providers do intentially.

?

Rich.

[richard]

Rape too, i just checked out massivepass, and the first anime site listed was about rape with huge tenticles.

Is it legal to draw obscene material? surely that must still be obscene?

no one is actually getting raped, or hurt, and there is no children involved, so one point of view might be that its fine.

But surely its still promotion of the same thing?

hmn.

[Bullet]

I heard that it's illegal to generate pictures of underage children. But that was in cases in which they pics looked real. But I'm sure this would be considered the same thing.

[Saddam Hussein 2001]

If content is illegal, (and I am sure we all know what is legal and what is not), masking it or hiding it with anime should still be considered illegal.

Some may argue it is only a drawing or "artwork" but it definately implies illegal activity. http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/frown.gif

Let your own moral compass guide you.

[Dawgy]

while i am not an expert, i do surf for anime quite a bit and have run into some interesting things. for example, in the gay world, there are several "niches" of anime that are specifically about young boys. most of these drawings are fan-art. that is they are created by every day people, using their favorite characters from regular anime cartoons. you probly wont find this stuff for sale to adult webmasters, but im in the mood to ramble so just shut up & deal with it. http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

one is more about the love of a boy and his older friend (usually a teen or adult male). these drawings are not sexual in nature, and rarely have nudity.

another niche is more sexual, but covers the same material. usually its somewhat hardcore, not always showing penetration, but definitely sexual. ive never seen this material for sale anywhere, but i know it can be bought.

still other shows extreme sexual stuff involving those same young boys and their older pals. bondage, rape, incest, etc. freaky stuff cuz you know when youre looking at it that its an 8 year old boy. even if he is a cartoon.

anyway.... as for regular anime stuff... ive long thought that part of the appeal to surfers of anime is how young the characters look. most of the stuff i've seen looks like younger girls and younger guys. its nice stuff but when you stop and look at it... ya realize that those characters really do look like theyre 15 or 16. so... i dunno.

ive also wondered about stories. ive read a lot of stories that specifically state "when i was 14 my uncle..." and so on... are these not illegal as well?

so now that i've typed up this whole long thing without drawing any specific conclusions, and voicing only vague opinions, im gonna finish my taco bell http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

woof.

[candidpublishinginc]

As far as I'm concerned anime content is considered an art in my eyes. I don't care if it has tenticles or not!

There's no real way to tell if a cartoon picture is 14 or 15. A lot of 25 year old Japanese women look like they're 17.

[Saddam Hussein 2001]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by candidpublishinginc:
As far as I'm concerned anime content is considered an art in my eyes. I don't care if it has tenticles or not!

There's no real way to tell if a cartoon picture is 14 or 15. A lot of 25 year old Japanese women look like they're 17.

</font>

You are correct on both accounts. Anime is art, and you can not discern the ages of the people depicted.

Some of the descriptions I have seen around clearly imply activity which is taboo or strictly forbidden.

"young boys raped by the tentical monster"

"brother sister incest"

It just depends where you draw the line.

btw-can I use these textlink descriptions for my candid account? http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/ubb/smile.gif

[richard]

good point about the stories Dawgy, you get those all over the place.

Candid, if you had a sexual scene, clearly with an "underage" girl/boy, would you consider that art, or cp?

I hear what you are saying about Asian women, and of course when it comes down to it, its not a case of looking at a "model's" birth certificate - proving the cartoon is CP is going to be tough.

US law, (and i'm not quoting) deems obscene to be (among other things) lacking in and artistic merit.

Is a cartoon of a horse shagging a girl therefore obscene?

Should there be justification between "cartoon" and "anime"?

bit of a head fuck really.

[pooky]

Well my opinion about this whole thing is that we have our own judgement to make about the content that we see.

Rape anime. Well...that can you say unless that there are some derranged assholes out there....like the guys who live beside me LOL

Rape and and anime. Oh well. What can you do?

[Bullet]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by candidpublishinginc:
As far as I'm concerned anime content is considered an art in my eyes. I don't care if it has tenticles or not!

There's no real way to tell if a cartoon picture is 14 or 15. A lot of 25 year old Japanese women look like they're 17.

</font>\


But there's a difference when it's rape, and obvious cp

[Dawgy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by richard:
US law, (and i'm not quoting) deems obscene to be (among other things) lacking in and artistic merit.</font>


who determines what is obscene and what has artistic merit? what is artistic merit?

give the same court case to 100 different juries and you will get 100 different interpretations of the law.

this is why the law is flawed, and always will be in any form or fashion. it will never, ever be enforceable.

[global]

I believe the U.S. Supreme Court has already heard arguments regarding a case which involved computer-generated images of child pornography. I can't quickly find a reference to that, but here is a reference to the 4th circuit of appeals hearing the same case: http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3543

According to this article, the Child Pornography Protection Act of 1996 substantially broadens the definition of child pornography, stating that it is "any visual depiction, including any photography, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture ... of sexually explicit conduct, where ... such visual depiction is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct."

[Dawgy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by global:
I believe the U.S. Supreme Court has already heard arguments regarding a case which involved computer-generated images of child pornography. I can't quickly find a reference to that, but here is a reference to the 4th circuit of appeals hearing the same case: http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=3543

According to this article, the Child Pornography Protection Act of 1996 substantially broadens the definition of child pornography, stating that it is "any visual depiction, including any photography, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture ... of sexually explicit conduct, where ... such visual depiction is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct."</font>


right. so if i draw it by hand then scan it, is that computer generated?

[richard123]

I thought the intention of the CP laws was to protect children from being abused.

I don't think animated characters need the same protection since they are inane objects.

I could be wrong, of course, and if so I'd like to apologise to ANY AND ALL animated characters that may be reading this!!

[netw0rks]

LMFAO @ richard123.

[Thor]

Do you think that a painting of a murder taking place is a crime

[Energy Hosting]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by richard123:
I thought the intention of the CP laws was to protect children from being abused.
</font>

I agree. CP laws were created to protect children. Drawing a cartoon character that to some people seems to be under 18 is legal. Creating a pornographic drawing of a minor (and that looks like a human) is illegal.

http://www.missingkids.com/html/ncmec_default_ec_chldporn_laws.html

disclaimer: This is not legal advice. Your attorney would be the best person to ask about this.

[candidpublishinginc]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by richard:

Candid, if you had a sexual scene, clearly with an "underage" girl/boy, would you consider that art, or cp?
</font>

I would consider that CP.

However the Henti I have soon on acmeporn.com for example clearly is not CP.

You can't really prove that an Anime girl is underage anyway.

[Bullet]

You're missing the point. Yes, laws were made against cp to protect their individual rights. But art of cp could pontentially glorify and or promote the raping or sexual abuse of children.

The last time I checked, you could get put behind bars for threatning someone. So why does it seem so unreasonable to you that cp art is also illegal. And I'm not talking about anime of a girl that might look like she's 17, I'm talking art that clearly depicts children in explicit sexual acts.

My understanding is that computer generate images of cp is illegal, so I'd have to guess that anime would be as well.

[QuaShe]

In Holland there is something up about to forbid computer-generated images of child pornography to. I think its a good thing. I agree with Bullet about the promoting of cp in this way.

Quashe

[rukbunker]

I think from a drawing u can't tell if the boy/girl is underaged. In my opinion the problems start when people who like CP find these drawings and go out to get some real kids.

[richard123]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bullet:
So why does it seem so unreasonable to you that cp art is also illegal. And I'm not talking about anime of a girl that might look like she's 17, I'm talking art that clearly depicts children in explicit sexual acts... </font>
It seems so unreasonable since CP has in common with other crimes this: It's a crime. Just because it's CP (and therefore makes us all very emotional and angry) doesn't put it in some special category - the same processes apply to ALL crimes.
Imagine if I were the victim of a burglary. I can imagine, then, that I'd like any glorification of burglaries to be banned as well. Remember the movie Natural Born Killers?

Putting aside the possibility that someone may create (from scratch) an image that looks *exactly* like a human being (because the original discussion/debate is about animated characters), you'd have to consider this: (and I'm not being a smartass)
Humans can tell reality from fantasy. If that were not the case, you'd have (real)cops going out to arrest the crooks in Law & Order.

Simple, really. The reason why (whoever it was) proposed that *simulated* CP/underage stuff should be banned too would have been this:
You cannot *tell* if it's real or not.

I seem to recall that the rule about "faking" underage models was never upheld anyway. But that's beside the point. We're talking animated characters.

[basschick]

incest is illegal but stories about incest are not. there are 6 monthly incest story mags that come out every month at my local dirty book store.

yuck!

[William]

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~keltie/Funny/animations/jack.gif

[William]

*lol*

[JewDoggyDogg]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bullet:
You're missing the point. Yes, laws were made against cp to protect their individual rights. But art of cp could pontentially glorify and or promote the raping or sexual abuse of children.</font>

That's the point of the first amendment, you can promote and glorify anything the hell you want. Whether it's legal or not to draw CP, bestiality and rape, depends on how conservatice your country is, and how much they value their personal freedom.

I certainly don't think you should regulate fantasy, or the expression thereof.

[Arthur]

Much of this "hentai" style of anime is obviously designed to pander to pedophiles.

Remember, this shit originated from a country where only 5 years ago anyone could walk into a porn shop and buy a magazine or video featuring naked 10 year olds.

Fantasy or not, these types should keep this shit where it belongs -- inside their head.

[creepy]

Ofcourse cartoon pictures or stories of children/animals/whatever in sexual situation are not and should not be illegal.

That would be the same as censoring people's thoughts and fantasies, then what is next? Political ideas? Crime fiction?

Writing a story about a bank robbery could also possibly inspire someone to do it.

[richard]

Yes Creepy, but you are saying you'd promote cartoons with CP?

[cynthia]

Here's 2 more cents for the bucket:

Before we start Japan-bashing, consider this - I've seen tons of galleries of almost every Disney character in sexual situations. Most likely NOT drawn by the Japanese. How old is "Alice" from Alice in Wonderland?

To further muddy the waters, Japan formerly had a law that prohibited the deptiction of pubic hair - that's why most of the anime images you find either have the naughty bits blurred out and/or are drawn without pubic hair. Draw a small breasted girl with big doe-eyes (part of the anime style) and remove her pubic hair and you can't tell how old she's supposed to be anymore. Unfortunately, most drawings don't come with a model release (*wink*). Am I comfortable with those galleries? Not really.

1) Hentai anime surfers are looking for something specific, not CP, not a drawn depiction of CP, but anime. The big eyes and lack of pubic hair are just part of the package.

2)Looking at an anime gallery is not going to whet someone's appetite for CP. And at the same time if they're looking for CP, they're not going to be satisfied with a hentai gallery. I'd guess that if you're not looking for anime, happening across a gallery will do nothing for you aside from make you shake your head in disbelief that this is actually a fetish.

And as far as the "Tentacle Rape" descriptions go: puh-leese. A lust for those types of galleries doesn't make a rapist - unless of course it's the kind of rapist who likes to dress up in big foam rubber costumes. And if that's the case then that guy's got bigger problems than just being keen on anime. If you've got a problem with that, then go pick on Horrorsex or something - those are pictures, not drawings.

That said - it's Saturday. I'm off to watch cartoons. :)

btw - Just out of curiosity... how many of the people discussing this topic actually know anything about or work with hentai anime?

[cynthia]

I meant to write - "am I personally comfortable with these galleries? Not really, but..."

Damn - need to proofread better. :P

[Hypo]

I guess y'all want to put John Grisham in jail for describing a rape in Time to Kill? Or execute the director of Death Wish. Maybe electrocute the producer of Lolita. And prosecute Tolkien's children for the murders he describes in Lord of the Rings. Arthur Conan Doyle for all the thefts and killings in his Sherlock Holmes stories. It's fantasy, people. If you dont draw a line between fantasy and life we'll all be in jail just for thinking about kicking our boss.

[Bullet]

Okay, you all seem right about this issue, but I still wouldn't go around posting cp anime on my sites and not expect legal issues.

My two cents.

[creepy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by richard:
Yes Creepy, but you are saying you'd promote cartoons with CP?
</font>

No, but then again I don't really see the two as related.

But I wouldn't be beyond hinting at it, as long as it was clear it was fantasy, either by making outrageous claims or clearly stated.

They keyword is "Fantasy", we all have fantasies, not all are legal or doable, but as long as they remain fantasies I really cannot see a problem with it.

I think we should keep things clear, strike down hard on people who deliver pictures of that kind of real content, not the people who caters to a certain fantasy with essentially harmless material.

[richard]

btw - Just out of curiosity... how many of the people discussing this topic actually know anything about or work with hentai anime?

i for one dont, but neither do any pressure groups that might pick on this sort of thing as the next target.. ?

[Bullet]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hypo:
I guess y'all want to put John Grisham in jail for describing a rape in Time to Kill? Or execute the director of Death Wish. Maybe electrocute the producer of Lolita. And prosecute Tolkien's children for the murders he describes in Lord of the Rings. Arthur Conan Doyle for all the thefts and killings in his Sherlock Holmes stories. It's fantasy, people. If you dont draw a line between fantasy and life we'll all be in jail just for thinking about kicking our boss.</font>

Yeah, but that's a bit different. If you came across a site that says models aged 4-17, you would take that as a cp site, right???

Even if the models looked like they were 40, I'm pretty sure saying something like that on your site is illegal, but I'm not sure.

Anyways, I agree with the person who said that if you advertise this anime as being cp, there's a good chance it's illegal. But why wouldn't anime that obviously looks like cp also be illegal?

[Arthur]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Before we start Japan-bashing, consider this - I've seen tons of galleries of almost every Disney character in sexual situations. Most likely NOT drawn by the Japanese. How old is "Alice" from Alice in Wonderland?
</font>

I didn't intend my post to be Japan-bashing, I don't believe they would have any more or less pedophiles than anywhere else in the world-- they just took far longer than other major nations to outlaw cp.
OK, I haven't seen a great deal of hentai style anime, but what I have seen often depicts underage-looking characters either being raped, or having white fluids being splashed about their faces. I can't recall any Disney cartoons that even imply this, much less depict it.

I've got no problem with people harboring any or all forms of fantasy, no matter how abnormal, violent or perverted.

But the public expression of it? Surely there has to be a limit -- that being what is generally held to be acceptable within one's community.

To those who subscribe to the "I don't agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" line I ask this (admittedly extreme) hypothetical question:

If a person were so inclined to write pamphlets describing his secret desire to sodomize and rape your wife/sister/child, and distribute them around your neighbourhood, would you grudgingly accept this as the price of free speech and freedom of expression?
r those who

[Bullet]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Arthur:
If a person were so inclined to write pamphlets describing his secret desire to sodomize and rape your wife/sister/child, and distribute them around your neighbourhood, would you grudgingly accept this as the price of free speech and freedom of expression?
r those who </font>

I personally don't think this is a good example. It's not illegal to write a story about rape. On the same note, it wouldn't be illegal if someone wrote a story on a child pornographer. A better example would be like this, what if someone went around saying they were raped by someone, and the person admits to it. Even if they didn't really rape the person, they'd probably still be put in jail.

If the anime states that they're pics of underage children, or makes it obvious that it's cp anime, I still think this is illegal.


Another point not brought up is the fact that the anime could potentially be drawn after a real underage child, posing for an artist.

Here's an article I found about college girl who sued her school because a nude art painting of her was released in the public. I know this is completely different. But I still think it brings up another point:

http://www.sptimes.com/News/070401/TampaBay/Art_or_porn_USF_opts_.shtml

[Bullet]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bullet:

Here's an article I found about college girl who sued her school because a nude art painting of her was released in the public. I know this is completely different. But I still think it brings up another point:

http://www.sptimes.com/News/070401/TampaBay/Art_or_porn_USF_opts_.shtml</font>

I meant she brought a lawsuit against her school because her art teacher showed a painting of two people having sex.

[mariscomics]

Hi, folks

I’m an artists and a cartoonporn content provider and I can tell you this: 18 USC 2257 does not covers the artwork. However, my sales stats say that our clients prefer not to play games with this as some “risky” comics we’ve got aren’t selling as well as the rest. Also some content resellers I worked with refused to put on sale any of such titles while they didn’t find there’s anything wrong with reselling hentai. In hentai all the characters definitely look underaged but we do classic hc comics and the drawings look far more serious… maybe that’s what makes the difference.

[cynthia]

Richard - I don't think I understand what you mean by your comment. Are you saying that hentai sites might be the next target for the powers that be? I'd venture a guess of "hardly". The audience is way too small first of all - wouldn't make a big enough media circus. Second, I'd like to believe that sites like farmteens and poopsex are more lacking in artistic merit, but that's just me.

Arthur - Although I understand your position, I have seen Disney 'toon galleries that depict what you describe and worse. Sailor Moon wasn't originally created with a sexual bent, either, but there are plenty of x-rated pics of her crew as well. Also, Japan didn't take longer to outlaw CP than others, we're just talking about a cultural difference (right or wrong). In Japan the "coming of age" is around 14. In America you can buy access to sites of naked 8 year old children in the name of "art". Which is more twisted? (Obviously both bend the icky way - let's not point fingers according to country lines, please).

I think mariscomics's data is spot on: Fisting is illegal, but I've seen plenty of hentai fisting galleries. Same with bondage with penetration. But we're talking about drawings - not real people. Nobody's being demeaned or abused, it's pure fantasy. It all comes down with what you feel is an acceptable risk. If you're not comfortable with it, then don't promote it. The link between CP and Anime in general is only there if you make it an issue - such as promoting it as such. Like I said before it's just the nature of the artwork (big eyes, little nose, tiny body).

H-fans in general are NOT CP fans, they're Anime fans, and that makes a WORLD of difference.