PAYPAL -DOES- accept adult subscriptions.... reporting live from Las Vegas

[richard]

Wanna know something interesting?

PayPal Inc have a booth at the show here, and DO process credit card subscriptions for adult sites.

Rates are something like 9%, which is more than their standard charges, because this is adult.

Got all their other stuff, inc affiliate program (and handling affiliate payouts etc).

the email on their info form is setup@paypal.com.

Gotta love this huge mainstream company getting their hands dirty eh?

Go get 'em Anthony ;).

Rich

[candidpublishinginc]

Hopefully they will turn a profit now since they are processing adult.

[Mogul]

yea, they process some of my stuff.

Works out pretty good. It is both business and customer friendly which I like.

Not having them hold 10+% for 6 months is nice too.

Mogul

[candidpublishinginc]

They also have lots of non adult transactions to balance out the adult chargebacks.

[Due]

They don't have a info page?

[AzteK]

Originally posted by candidpublishinginc:
<STRONG>They also have lots of non adult transactions to balance out the adult chargebacks.</STRONG>

almost everybody on ebay uses them for transactions...

[Dawgy]

theres also current a lawsuit in progress to stop them from processing adult, because per their original terms with programmers, they would NOT process adult. those programmers are in this business, and obviously dont want competition. i know more than i can say, but in short, i think their processing of adult will not last much longer.

ive been wrong before, but just sharing what info i know.

[candidpublishinginc]

I doubt some lame lawsuit will stop them from processing adult.

[Dawgy]

Originally posted by candidpublishinginc:
<STRONG>I doubt some lame lawsuit will stop them from processing adult.</STRONG>

you'd think, except that supposedly its on paper that they will not process adult. sort of a no-compete agreement.

[Anthony Raff]

Richard, thanks for the news :-)

is anyone going to invest in paypal when they come out with there IPO soon ?

[mukoh]

I think Paypal has a strong future processing sales wether it be adult or non-adult stuff.
No competition agreements are easier to bypass then anything else from what I hear on the legal side.
Hope Paypal IPO's soon

[Marky]

pay pal as a company has been losing money for quite some time. The only thing that would stop them from processing adult sites is what dawgy said. But if they do start, they're going to be back up again, no question.

[playa]

one thing they told me is that
they don't "SCRUB" the credit cards,,,

the drawback,,,
they email surfers prior to rebills :(

i told them this is what will hurt them,,

[quotealex]

Originally posted by playa:
<STRONG>
the drawback,,,
they email surfers prior to rebills :(

i told them this is what will hurt them,,</STRONG>

Why is that a bad thing? I think this policy will save them from high chargeback?

[playa]

Originally posted by quotealex:
<STRONG>

Why is that a bad thing? I think this policy will save them from high chargeback?</STRONG>

the whole concept of recurring memberships is people forget to cancel their memberships,,overal i believe chargebacks are lot lower now with increase rules about chargebacks from visa,,,

and email saying your membership is about to recur,, click on this link to cancel is way to easy rather than calling on the phone to chargeback

[Blondy]

Originally posted by playa:
<STRONG>one thing they told me is that
they don't "SCRUB" the credit cards,,,

the drawback,,,
they email surfers prior to rebills :(

i told them this is what will hurt them,,</STRONG>

I wouldn't use them in this case :(

[Pinhead]

Originally posted by playa:
<STRONG>

the whole concept of recurring memberships is people forget to cancel their memberships...</STRONG>

What happened to the venerable idea of "the satisfied customer", often viewed as one of the corner-stones of modern marketing?

:confused:

[quotealex]

Right-on.

Originally posted by Pinhead:
<STRONG>

What happened to the venerable idea of "the satisfied customer", often viewed as one of the corner-stones of modern marketing?

:confused:</STRONG>

[Anthony Raff]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[ClownBarf]

Hell, use them as a back-up processor. If CCBill / iBill / Whoever Bill doesn't accept a CC, send 'em off to PayPal. Big deal they email rebill confirmations. Better a rebill confirmation then a NO SALE from hard scrubbing.

[FantasyX]

I think it is a good idea to notify your customers when their payment is due. Let them decide whether or not to keep their membership. Remember this is a business and just like any other business there needs to be certain ethics followed. I've seen too many sites offer their 3 day trial memebership without giving any information on how to cancel the membership if you decide you don't want it. They wait until after you have already been charged for a full membership before giving you the cancelation information. SO a good way to remedy this bad business practice as well as others is to ask the customer if they want to keep their membership. That's just my take on it. You may disagree with my point of view, but I have noticed alot of people in this business exploring grey areas of business practices and I am sick of it. If you are in this as a long term business, treat it as a business. If you are in it to make a quick buck, get out now.

~Fantasy X

[basschick]

FantasyX, you *might* be living in idealistic fantasy.

the L.A. times gives you a free trial, makes cancellation impossible, and bills you - if you don't pay, they send you to collection. i had this happen 10 years ago, and DID cancel, they sent the papers and sent me to collection!

same with a famous book, music and movie subscription service, BMG services. my son cancelled and he STILL a year later after recancelling many times gets fucking movies in the mail if he is not careful to contact them each month - and gets billed for the fucking things. and they also use collection agencies for the poor members who cancel after their obligation is met but their cancellation is ignored.

also there is the way surfers deal with sex site subscriptions. i talked to several members who charged back - all admitted they used the service repeatedly AND enjoyed it - but felt that having to pay for sex or having their wives find out makes it okay to tell the bank "i didn't make that charge".

when i pointed out to each one he was guilty of credit card fraud, he send me a check to cover the chargeback fees as well as the membership... a couple asked if they could rejoin!

it isn't always simple black and white - i suspect we are in a grey area that will slowly develop more definition as time goes by.

[FantasyX]

LMFAO.

The LA Times used to use practices like that, but they did get nailed by the FCC and as far as BMG....I suggest you read the fine print on the contract.

I may have an idealistic outlook on life, but I know that scamming like that is wrong. If you are going to offer a 3 day trial, then there should be a way for the surfer to cancel within those 3 days. Not only is it unethical, but it is illegal underFTC regulations of e-commerce, not to have a way for people to cancel before being charged for a full month of service.

If you offer a 3 day trial and the surfer cancels before paying for the full month, the solution is simple: USE A SCRIPT TO RECORD THEIR IP ADDRESS NAME AND BILLING INFORMATION, that way the next time they try to in on the trial membership, you can have them directed to a page that says they already used their trial membership and if the want to jopin they are going to have to pay for the full month.

I suggest that all webmasters read up on what the law says and follow it. There are regulations on e-commerce. For those of you wondering, the legal definition of e-commerce is: Any company, organization or individual using ther technology of the internet to make a profit.

So, I stand by my prior post. There are too many people using tactics that are both unethical and also illegal in this business and they are ruining it for those of us who are businessmen and businesswomen.

~Fantasy X

[candidpublishinginc]

Did they?

Show us the link with the FTC case about the LA times. I'm interested.

Didn't the FTC go after AOL because of similiar practices? (Although I'm afraid that it is STILL very difficult to cancel your AOL account.)

[playa]

good news,,, the pay pal rep said that each individual account could request to have email notification turned off,, but would have to eat the excess charges that will incur,,,

[Marky]

playa, while you're at it, suggest to them to open an affiliate program. If the two go together, and maybe something else of course, than no one will use ccbill or ibill ever again :)

[erotictrance]

This is pretty interesting ...

First, that the other processors are suing ...

Two, that PayPay doesn't scrub ...

PayPay's already had a lot of problems with chargebacks and fraud. If I recall correctly last quarter they lost nearly $6 million just because of one fraud incident ...

Since adult is higher risk for that ... and they're already losing money ... it will be interesting to see if this works out.

I'm sure they can potentially make more money with this ... but if they don't scrub they also could do worse ...

[erotictrance]

Originally posted by FantasyX:
<STRONG>I think it is a good idea to notify your customers when their payment is due. Let them decide whether or not to keep their membership. Remember this is a business and just like any other business there needs to be certain ethics followed. I've seen too many sites offer their 3 day trial memebership without giving any information on how to cancel the membership if you decide you don't want it. They wait until after you have already been charged for a full membership before giving you the cancelation information. SO a good way to remedy this bad business practice as well as others is to ask the customer if they want to keep their membership. That's just my take on it. You may disagree with my point of view, but I have noticed alot of people in this business exploring grey areas of business practices and I am sick of it. If you are in this as a long term business, treat it as a business. If you are in it to make a quick buck, get out now.

~Fantasy X</STRONG>

I totally agree. I personally think recurring billing sucks. But if you're going to do it, at least notify the customer and let them cancel easily if they want to.

I do a lot of personal chat room promo. Why? Because it's the only way to convince surfers that I'm for real and that I won't rip them off.

The surfers aren't newbies anymore. And they're tired of the scams. There's a ton of free porn they can access (pirate boards, peer-to-peer networks, etc.) with a lot less hassle than what most pay sites put them through ...

It causes a lot of problems for EVERYBODY in the business ...

[shunga]

Originally posted by erotictrance:
<STRONG>I personally think recurring billing sucks.</STRONG>

When you buy a magazine you have the choice of buying a single issue or an annual subscription, which will likely rebill. You make a choice. As long as it's clear the membership will rebill, and it's simple to cancel, then I don't see the problem.

[erotictrance]

Point taken Shunga ...

And that would be great if the adult industry adopted something similar to the magazine industry model ...

But very few adult sites actually offer the option of true non-recurring billing ... Where you pay perhaps a two or three bucks more than the monthly membership fee ... with one time billing only ...

If most sites did that, I'd say fine. But it's the exception rather than the rule.

As it stands now, I still say recurring billing sucks ...

Even if you disclose cancellation on the billing page --- you're still putting an undue burden on the consumer.

The customer hasn't even had a chance to check out the site yet and see if they like it! Yet he's got to worry about remembering to cancel while he's checking out the members area.

(Although I do think Pay Pal's email solution is pretty good, actually. But nobody does it this way.)

I just think standard recurring billing practices are wrong, and it serves no other purpose than to trick the customer into handing over more money.

If they like the site they'll come back. If they don't ... that's our tough luck.

And stuff like this hurts all of us in the long run. With all of the free porn alternatives --- and the newbie factor pretty much tapped out --- I'm absolutely certain of that.

[Marky]

erotictrance- the point is less money in our pockets if the surfer forgets he has a membership. What basschick stated above about how bmg, not to mention a lot of other big companies, are doing very similar things, and it has almost become a standard in the adult industry.

So many companies take hits on the bad customers, that they have to screw over the good customers as much as possible. If a surfer gets notified of being billed before each cycle, the chargebacks would go down, but then again the cancellations would sky rocket. Just look at dialers. They were great when none of them had prices on top of the warning menu, but now there's a huge decrease in minutes amongst webmasters because dialer companies have to become more compliant to help them aviod chargeback issues.

In the end, we all want more money.

[erotictrance]

So let me get this straight ... because I'm not sure if I understand you Marky ...

We're supposed to screw over the good customers in order to make up for the bad customers?

I understand the problem with chargebacks. That's why I use a scrubbing database. If they've charged back before, chances are they're in the database. If they charge back on me, they go into the database ... and that's clearly disclosed on my site.

Personally ... I only want to develop good customers. If some asshole has screwed some other site on chargebacks ... I don't want him, quite frankly. To me, it's not worth what little up front money I might get from him --- if he's trying to screw me over anyway.

There might be some "straight" sites that do this outside of the adult industry ... But I know of plenty that don't.

My goal is simple. Good, loyal customers who repeatedly come back because I provide excellent content, customer service and entertainment.

I don't need to try to make money any other way ...

[FantasyX]

Ok, the thing with BMG is totally legal be cause it is stated in the contract you sign with them that they have these business practices. If you don't read the contract before you sign it, oh F*cking well. It's your problem.

The problem I have with these type of practices in the adult websites industry is that no where does it state that in order to get the 3 day trial membership, you also have to pay for the first month. I have seen alot of companies use the tactic of not sending out the cancelation instructions until after the customer is billed for the first month of service. It is the classic bait and switch tactic which has been outlawed since the mid 1970's.

If you are going to offer a 3 day trial for $2.99, then you should offer a way for the customer to cancel within those 3 days. If you want them to stay on for more then 3 days and are going to charge them for a 1 month subscription, then you need to state that in your terms of service. It's a very simple concept.

As far as not making any money by doing that, well you must be doing something wrong then if you can't keep your customers. Take a look at the sites Maximum Cash owns. They offer a 3 day trial for 2.99 and give you a way to cancel within those 3 days. Their average subscriber to one of there sites on a 3 day trial ends up staying for 4 months. SO I know it's not impossible. It just takes some hard work and alot of research on your part to see how it's done.

I quite frankly am sick of adult webmasters who take advantage of their customers. You give the rest of us a bad name. Get with the program and start running a business. Quit screwing your customers. In the long run the entire industry will be more profitable if we all start looking at this for what it is and treat our customers right.

~Fantasy X

[Pinhead]

Originally posted by FantasyX:
<STRONG>If you are going to offer a 3 day trial for $2.99, then you should offer a way for the customer to cancel within those 3 days... As far as not making any money by doing that, well you must be doing something wrong then if you can't keep your customers. </STRONG>

I agree... If a paysite can't make any profit without resorting to illegal or unethical practices, it should seriously consider what kind of product it offers to the customer.

[Marky]

Originally posted by erotictrance:
<STRONG>So let me get this straight ... because I'm not sure if I understand you Marky ...

We're supposed to screw over the good customers in order to make up for the bad customers?
..</STRONG>

Exactly. May not make sense to you, and it's not ethical to anyone, but it's the truth. Most companies have to deal with millions of dollars in credit card fraud, chargebacks etc, etc, etc... that many resort to these little tactics just so they can stay in business.

You're right, they may be wrong for doing this, but that is where it is in the adult industry, not to mention practices that a lot of mainstream companies have been doing for years now.

[erotictrance]

Originally posted by Marky:
<STRONG>

Exactly. May not make sense to you, and it's not ethical to anyone, but it's the truth. Most companies have to deal with millions of dollars in credit card fraud, chargebacks etc, etc, etc... that many resort to these little tactics just so they can stay in business.

You're right, they may be wrong for doing this, but that is where it is in the adult industry, not to mention practices that a lot of mainstream companies have been doing for years now.</STRONG>

Well ... as I tried to state earlier ... I am doing my best to avoid the bad customers so that I don't have to screw my good customers ...

That's the way I do business ... not the other way around ...

Regardless, that's not a good excuse for unethical recurring billing practices ...

[FantasyX]

Ya Konw Marky, it's idiots like you that give this business a bad name. First off, yes it is unethical to srcew your customers and second IT IS ILLEGAL!!! Get that through your head. What you are doing is referred to as "bait and switch". You lure people in by offering them a low rate and claim it is a trial, but then you go ahead and chrge them for the full months access. You need to get out of the business now before you hurt the rest of us honest business people.

Yes for many years mainstreem businesses used those practices, but the FTC ruled in 1983 that such practices are illegal (consumer protection act 1983, section 14)

~Fantasy X

[Cyber-Fantasy]

fantasy x

get off your soap box........
*yawn

[erotictrance]

Hey ... I'm with you Fantasy ...

It's no soapbox ...

It's what's hurting this business for EVERYBODY ...

[basschick]

fantasyx - all ccbill and globill paysites - and a LOT of others - have BIG cancel membership buttons that allow any member to cancel right up to his rebill. they have phone numbers allowing them to cancel. they have email addresses allowing them to cancel.

a fairly large amount of sites say the charges rebill ON THE SIGNUP BUTTON.

just 'cause a guy has a hardon is NOT an excuse for not reading the terms and conditions of a credit card purchase - which mostly state the rebilling, often first thing. funny how most people would consider any credit card bill legit until a guy has an erection. then apparently he isn't obligated to read what he agrees to. what a load!

by the way, the bmg agreement does not state that you will continue to receive shipments AFTER you cancel. they just do it. the l.a. times STILL does that cute little manuever. they got someone i know less than 6 months ago.

[FantasyX]

I was referring to Marky's post about having to screw over the customers to make money. Not to webmasters in general. I have seen alot of site screw over their customers and I think it is wrong. It is not a very good business practice to piss off your customers.

I know the larger billing companies have a way to cancel your membership before you get charged for full month. I applaud them. My only problem is the sites that use a lesser known CC company and don't offer the cancelation. I may have been out of line in my earlier posts and I do appologize.

~Fantasy X

[erotictrance]

You weren't out of line Fantasy ...

In fact, you were right ...

No need to apologize ...

[Marky]

fantasy x, you're a moron. You don't know what I was talking about, and it's clear that you don't know how many big name companies do the same things that most adult sites do.

Again, I stated that many adult sites have to use alternate tactics to make more money. I indeed called it screwing over the surfer, but I was reffering to rebills, and trying to hide the fact that the surfer would have to pay on a monthly basis as much as possible (some other tactics of course).

I think basschick already went into explanation that the surfer should pay more attention to what's going on, and less time thinking about jerking off.

So fantasy x, if you've ever promoted a pay site or a dialer in your life, then that makes you just as bad (and evil) of a webmaster as me, and you should be beaten to a bloody death and spend the rest of your life in Hell.

I was only stating that alternate tactics are used to either make more money, or actually make money. There's big companies that fuck people over so bad that it's hard to believe that they haven't been shut down. Bad customers make it even worse, and to some extent force companies into using these unethical tactics in the first place.

So once the world is full of joy, and where all surfer are willing to pay a one time fee of $xxx.xx amount for access to a pay site. When they all make the agreement to never chargeback or ask for a refund, and of course not use stolen credit cards... maybe then we can stop using rebills. But until then, I guess we all have to do so, and I guess it really is our way of scamming surfers even though they're specifically told that they're going to be rebilled if they continue their membership.

hehe :D

[Marky]

Originally posted by Marky:
<STRONG> and spend the rest of your life in Hell.

</STRONG>

oops, afterlife :)

[Marky]

ouch, I think I'm going to have to go on forever here, but remember, the main point of this thread was a discussion of whether pay pal should notify their customers before a rebill.

That will clear up my post, (of two posts ago :o), as to what I meant of these "alternate tactics."

[Marky]

Originally posted by FantasyX:
<STRONG>Ok, the thing with BMG is totally legal be cause it is stated in the contract you sign with them that they have these business practices. If you don't read the contract before you sign it, oh F*cking well. It's your problem.

</STRONG>

One last post I promise, but fantasy x was the one who started this let me remind.

See the exerpt from above... this proves you agree with me exactly. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear in my earlier posts.

[Marky]

Originally posted by FantasyX:
<STRONG>The problem I have with these type of practices in the adult websites industry is that no where does it state that in order to get the 3 day trial membership, you also have to pay for the first month. </STRONG>

Grrr, fantasy x, why do you keep on making me post on this stupid thread that you've ruined by not knowing what you're talking about, and obviously not reading the whole thread before you jumped to conclusions.

Everything is stated in the terms and conditions. Some pay sites may hide the cancel button, but if I'm not mistaken, let me check in a bit, all instuctions of how to cancel, and how the surfer gets billed is in the terms and conditions.

erotictrance, there is no possible way of just getting rid of bad customers, they're the ones who are screwing everyone over.

I'm never going to post on this thread again unless I have to, please don't make me fantasy x, lol.

:(