Afghanistan Bombings due to terrorism?

[Simon]

For those of you that thought so think again.....


SUBCOMMITTEE ON
ASIA AND THE PACIFIC

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON
INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FIFTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

FEBRUARY 12, 1998


Mr. GEE. To begin, you may ask why is the United States active in the region? The United States has energy security, strategic, and commercial interests in promoting Caspian region energy development. We have an interest in strengthening global energy security through diversification, and the development of these new sources of supply.

Mr. GEE. We also have an interest in maximizing commercial opportunities for U.S. firms and for U.S. and other foreign investment in the region's energy development. In short, our interests are rooted in achieving multiple objectives. Rapid development of the region's energy resources and trade linkages are critical to the independence, prosperity, democracy, and stability of all of the countries of that region.

Mr. GEE. I would caution that while we do support the project, the U.S. Government has not at this point recognized any governing regime of the transit country, one of the transit countries, Afghanistan, through which that pipeline would be routed. But we do support the project.

Mr. GEE. It would be a pipeline generally for production from Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan, which is where most of the potential reserves are thought to be located.

Mr. GEE. According to our calculations, total foreign direct investment in Kazakhstan's oil and gas sector from 1991 through 1996 was approximately U.S. $2 billion. Total commitments for new, future direct investment in Kazakhstan's oil and gas development now stands at over U.S. $35 billion. The Tengiz field has estimated reserves of 24 billion barrels of crude oil and over 1800 billion cubic meters of associated natural gas. Oil production has slowly risen to its current level of approximately 160,000 barrels per day. Production is currently being hampered by limited access to export pipelines. Once the Caspian Pipeline Consortium pipeline is constructed, oil production from Tengiz is expected to increase to 750,000 barrels per day by 2010. Even at production of 160,000 barrels per day, the venture has been profitable. Tengizchevroil, the consortium producing the Tengiz field, reported profits of U.S. $80 million in 1996, up from only U.S. $1 million in 1995.

Mr. MARESCA. I would like to focus today on three issues. First, the need for multiple pipeline routes for Central Asian oil and gas resources. Second, the need for U.S. support for international and regional efforts to achieve balanced and lasting political settlements to the conflicts in the region, including Afghanistan. Third, the need for structured assistance to encourage economic reforms and the development of appropriate investment climates in the region. In this regard, we specifically support repeal or removal of section 907 of the Freedom Support Act.

Mr. MARESCA. Mr. Chairman, the Caspian region contains tremendous untapped hydrocarbon reserves. Just to give an idea of the scale, proven natural gas reserves equal more than 236 trillion cubic feet. The region's total oil reserves may well reach more than 60 billion barrels of oil. Some estimates are as high as 200 billion barrels. In 1995, the region was producing only 870,000 barrels per day. By 2010, western companies could increase production to about 4.5 million barrels a day, an increase of more than 500 percent in only 15 years. If this occurs, the region would represent about 5 percent of the world's total oil production.

Mr. MARESCA. The other project is sponsored by the Azerbaijan International Operating Company, a consortium of 11 foreign oil companies, including four American companies, Unocal, Amoco, Exxon and Pennzoil.

Mr. MARESCA. But even if both pipelines were built, they would not have enough total capacity to transport all the oil expected to flow from the region in the future. Nor would they have the capability to move it to the right markets. Other export pipelines must be built.

Mr. MARESCA. The second option is to build a pipeline south from Central Asia to the Indian Ocean. One obvious route south would cross Iran, but this is foreclosed for American companies because of U.S. sanctions legislation. The only other possible route is across Afghanistan, which has of course its own unique challenges. The country has been involved in bitter warfare for almost two decades, and is still divided by civil war. From the outset, we have made it clear that construction of the pipeline we have proposed across Afghanistan could not begin until a recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments, lenders, and our company.

Mr. MARESCA. Unocal foresees a pipeline which would become part of a regional system that will gather oil from existing pipeline infrastructure in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Russia. The 1,040-mile long oil pipeline would extend south through Afghanistan to an export terminal that would be constructed on the Pakistan coast. This 42-inch diameter pipeline will have a shipping capacity of one million barrels of oil per day. The estimated cost of the project, which is similar in scope to the trans-Alaska pipeline, is about $2.5 billion.

Mr. MARESCA. The proposed 790-mile pipeline will open up new markets for this gas, traveling from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Multan in Pakistan.

Mr. MARESCA. As with the proposed Central Asia oil pipeline, CentGas can not begin construction until an internationally recognized Afghanistan Government is in place.

Mr. MARESCA. Without peaceful settlement of the conflicts in the region, cross-border oil and gas pipelines are not likely to be built.

Mr. MARESCA. First, on the question about Afghanistan, of course we're not in a phase where we are negotiating on a contract because there is no recognized government really to negotiate with. However, we have had talks and briefings with all the factions. It is clear that they all understand the significance for their country of this pipeline project, and they all support it, all of them. They all want it. They would like it to start tomorrow. All of the factions would like it to start tomorrow if we could do it.

Mr. MARESCA. It's not going to be built until there is a single Afghan Government.

Mr. ROHRABACHER. So there will be no pipeline until there is an internationally regionized government ...
Related link: http://www.kcandassociates.org/call_papers.htm

[Simon]

This would completely explain the reason behind why they are paying more attention on over throwing the Taliban Regime rather then getting rid of Al - Queda ...

For now anyways....

[Unknown]

They will go after Al-Queda too, so it all seems clean. If they didn't people everywhere would begin to speculate like you do now and they don't want that ofcourse. God forbid people questioning what they are told! lol.

Did you know that US military has bought all rights to all satelite photos from the only civilian satelite that can see Afghanistan? (Even though they've got several spysatelites themselves.) They don't want people to see what is going on at all, and that should be reason for concern too. Looks like a cover up to me.

[sonicpuke]

Yeah it's all a secret conspiracy right?

Give me a break.

Let me break it down in small sylables so you can understand.

The taliban has an army.
This army is protecting al quieda.
So...
We can't get al quieda until taliban is gone.

Of course they don't want satelite pictures of an area where we are NOW conducting war opperations. (Duh?)

There is no huge conspiracy. Get over it.
America IS NOT the problem here. (It's so easy to blame america for everything many times while these same people are eating some food we sent or spending aid we sent. Oh how evil we are to feed people.)

I suppose if someone broke into your house(country) and killed your family(citizens) for no reason you'd just see if they would negotiate or just wait peacefully for them to kill the rest of your family?)

This is so cut and dry. I don't see why some people can't see who is evil here and who is not.

BTW American policy is not to blame either.
Just because we don't support the palestinian solution of killing/driving all isreal's into the sea isn't a good enough excuse. If the palestinians wanted peace they could easily have it. They don't though. They want only all the isreal's dead and nothing else will do. They complain and complain about how hard it is on them while they prolong and instigate more violence. Instead of a peaceful solution they feel that the way to solve this is to send suicide bombers too kill teenagers who are just out for a friday night.

Hatred and murder of isreal, america, christians and everthing non moslem is now taught not only in palestine but also in saudia arabia and other moslem countries. SO often they are not looking for peace at all but to destroy us. We on the other hand promote and spread tolerance of all religions since day one and try and spred this concept worldwids. STILL people try and act as though WE are the bad guys with secret motivations and plans. If WE wanted all moslems dead they would be dead. We could destroy all of afghanistan in one day using nuclear missles if that's what we wanted. They can't do this so they other methods to achieve that same goal (To destroy US). But still you think WE somehow did this? So we could get a pipeline through afghanistan? Give me a break please.

[Unknown]

Uhm, I haven't said US is evil or accused of anything, so keep your bullshit to yourself. I threw in my comments of what it looked like from my perspective since Simon obviously wanted to discuss it, so no need for you to go ballistic.

[sonicpuke]

You haven't said the us is evil or accused it of anything?

Not only was it implied in both messages and this message title that the us is secretly doing this not because of terrorism but some secret plan/reason.

Nevermind implication though since you said outright.

"Looks like a cover up to me."

Looks like an accusation of cover up to me.(Covering up what though? Cause whatever it is we are accused of that also no?)

Yup I heard it all before.

Usa is covering up stuff and killing people so they can get rich from some pipeline. But I'm not accusing them of anything. Really I'm not.

[Unknown]

First off, Simon and myself are two different persons. What he writes in his "message title" doesn't have anything to do with me.

Second, I was speaking to Simon and told him "Looks like ... to me". Notice the words "looks like" and specifically "to me". That, and the fact that I talked to one person, (Simon) not you or anyone else, makes a big difference. Ask any lawyer about it or look up "accusation" and you will feel different. In fact, you are the one throwing accusations here.

Anything else?

[ProgGod]

Something you must always realize, if you look hard enough for anything you are bound to find it.

I am sure there are many many reason why we went into this war, beyond just the bombing. In the same sense, i am sure you are going to be able to find many coincedences that you think will be some sort of consipiracy. This isn't the twilightzone :) I think some of you watch too many episodes of the xfiles.

[Unknown]

Originally posted by ProgGod:
<STRONG>Something you must always realize, if you look hard enough for anything you are bound to find it.

I am sure there are many many reason why we went into this war, beyond just the bombing. In the same sense, i am sure you are going to be able to find many coincedences that you think will be some sort of consipiracy. This isn't the twilightzone :) I think some of you watch too many episodes of the xfiles.</STRONG>

Haha, yeah, I watch much X-Files... ;)

Still, people should be allowed to think and question what they want beyond what the media tells them. I don't think anybody except maybe SonicPuke would argue against that.

[Simon]

Sonik,


What is the explanation for the letter then?
It is obviously pointing out at overthrowing governments near the Caspian sea, including Taliban for the US oil projects is it not?

[Simon]

Its not a conspiracy at all..

VERy simple. US wants oil cheap due to the energy crises , Britain wants part of it.
And give me a break, all this bullshit about humanity disasters that all the media is talking about , they are saying that to gain support. They do not give a rats ass about any of them like they hadn't before sept . 11th. Those people had been living like so for 30 years almost, why all of a sudden our governments feel pasionate twards them , god knows.. lol


The regimes right now are saying basically saying fuck off besides saudi, so they need to be over thrown.

Its not un-human. Every country wants its own good. Has been happening for centuries .

[Simon]

secondly , i dont see how you could possibly argue that letter.

That letter is from the house of representatives of the United States.
It didn't pop out of no where, so if anyone has a good explanation for it....

Im all ears.

[Simon]

Last but not least,

If the US doesn't stop its "BOmbing" campaign , not the commonds, soon before this Ramadan month of muslims, if our enemy was 50,000+ people its going to rise to 500 million +. Its going to create a very unsafe enviorment for people abroad and god forbid within our countries.

[rhizome]

I'll tell you what is NOT a coincidence. The fact that the U.S. is using this war against the Taliban to set up a Northern Alliance gov't. The Northern Alliance will do anything to get into bed with the U.S. and enjoy some of the riches that oil in the region will bring. And the Northern Alliance are just a bunch of fundamentalists whose hands are just as dirty as those of the Taliban. And of course the humanitarian "aid" is propaganda - just about every relief agency has called it just that (dropping food over land mines - that makes sense!). After this war, the U.S. will get its oil, the Northern Alliance will get its riches, al-Qaeda and the Taliban will be severely depleted, and the people of Afghanistan will continue to suffer. Why is it always the so-called innocent civilians that end of getting the short end of the stick whenever the U.S. goes to war? Hmmm. . .

[IronManX]

I think it bombing and military campaign needs to be made clearer. Why are we supporting another regime in Afghanistan?

How much money, arms, intelligence/training are we supplying these people with? Does the Northern Alliance have the potential to be another Al Qauda (sp?)/ Osma?

At what cost is our "partnership" with Pakistan? How much is it damaging our relationship with India? (both of these countries now have nuclear capability)

[Simon]

Yea i completely agree with you guys.

Northern Aliance is just as sick as the Taliban, they raped all the afgan women and etc before the taliban came in.(not that taliban is any better).

Reason why US is supporting them is because the northern aliance is supplying the man power that is needed to overthrow the Taliban government. US doesn't want its men to be killed , obvious enough and there is nothing wrong with that. Smart strategy.

But the northern Aliance is just as bad as the Taliban if not worse. The reason why they are our "friends" is because they are supplying the man power.


Pakistan is "NOT" going to let the northern aliance to goven afganistan . So this is just the begining of what is going to be a very long war indeed.

[Simon]

US already lost a huge allie in the middle east. Saudi that is. The royal family is not helping the US in anyway now because they are scared of being overthrown.

Next to come will most likely be Indonasia, Malysia, India, etc.

Although their governments may for now pretend to be on the Coalition side, NONE will remain so if this bombing doesn't stop.
and I am sure Bush and Powell know this and i will be damned if they dont stop the bombing campaign very soon.

Enough is enough. Go after the terrorists which are obviously not located in Kabul other major civilian cities. Most likely in caves and etc. So why bomb the cities?

[Simon]

WEll , there goes another Hospital.

UN just confirmed another hospital hit in Hazat with a 1000 pound bomb.

[baddog]

Simon,

WTF do you mean our friends? You are not a friend of the USA, So give it a fucking rest. Afghanistan, fuck it, will not even make a nice parking lot. Northern Alliance, fuck them, they are not going to govern anyone, but they will be part of a coalition government.

whatever a fucking letter written in 1998 says, it has not shit to do with why we are doing what we are doing now.

I can not help but notice how many of you anti-USA muther-fucks are now hiding from us what sites you promote (I guess you are all talk and afraid of being blacklisted/boycotted by the rest of us, you assholes), and I also find it amazing that you can rant and rave till the camels come home about what the USA is doing wrong, but none of you had come up with word one about what we should do. What is your solution? What would you do if Canada had anything worth attacking and it had been attacked instead of the WTC? Until then, keep your fucking opinions to yourself unless you do not mind feeling the wrath of those that agree that you are full of shit!!

Yeah, ramadan is on its way, and the bombing can cease before then, if the Taliban wants it, they know exactly what it will take. The world knows exactly what it will take.

So what if a hospital is accidently hit? Mistakes will happen, innocent people will get hurt, innocent people will die, that is what happens in war. Read a book. Guess what? More people will die, but as of yet, more were killed in the WTC than have died in 3 weeks of bombing Afghanistan.

I just saw an interesting documentary the other night, where a reporter is interviewing a Taliban higher up, and she asked about the fact that their cosser stadium is now used for executions rather than for playing soccer.

His response, why tell us 10 things we do wrong but never do one thing to help us do right. Why not give us money so we can build a place so that we can do our executions, and do our businessm and then we will not have to use the soccer stadium!!

Such a brilliant mind.

He was also questioned about the public executions in the streets. He said, Afghanistan is a place of peace and joy, to bring justice to a family that has been wronged brings great peace and joy.

Well, that is all we are doing, bringing justiceto this family that has been wronged, and yeah, he is right, it does bring great peace and joy! I could not have said it better.

[baddog]

Originally posted by bad_dog:
<STRONG>I just saw an interesting documentary the other night, where a reporter is interviewing a Taliban higher up, and she asked about the fact that their cosser stadium is now used for executions rather than for playing soccer.
</STRONG>

cosser stadium = soccer stadium

[sonicpuke]

Unknown said "I was speaking to Simon"
Really? I thought you were posting on a public message board for anyone to reply. Silly me I didn't realize that this board had been converted for only you and simon to use ;)

Ac.cuse, To charge with a crime, offense, or fault

You did in fact accuse the us of conspiracy. Whatever though. You can reparse your words however you want so an accusation really isn't one. Who cares.

Yeah I might have accused groups of some things. Like the taliban for protecting el quieda and the el quieda for multiple murders of americans and other foriegn (To me anyways) nationals in multiple cases (Not just WTC attack) I still stand by that and it's based on fact not some conspiracy theory.

Also I don't have to post anon. In fact my ICQ # is listed if anyone wants to bitch me out in realtime ;) You seem to back away from everything you say. (not sure why) If you have your oppinions why not just stick to them? I still don't like your AB script but I have no problem with your oppinions even though I totally disagree. When people post things like this I feal it is my right to respond so I did. The whole flavor of this message is that "the PROBLEM is the US and it's policies". It is NOT.

Simon ;)
That letter could well be fact.(probabbly is though I have no confirmation of this) There may even be oil there that we want to BUY. However we did not start this war. El quieda with support from the taliban did by attacking us. If we wanted to take oil we would have occupied iraq when we had that chance. That wasn't our mission though. It was however saddams mission to confiscate the land and oil or kuwait.

I mean I just KNOW your not trying to say the WE somehow destroyed the WTC so we would have and excuse to attack afghanistan so we could get some oil pipeline.(I'd laugh here but this isn't laughing matter) We were attacked and now we are responding. It's just as simple as that. If in the end we occupy afghanistan and take the oil reserves of the caspian sea then perhaps you can say something then. We have no plans to do that though so don't worry. If a pipeline comes it will only benefit the people of the region and it's not the goal of this war and will only occur if the governments of the region want it. Just because there is something in that region we might have use for isn't why this war is being fought. Period.

Simon said
"all this bullshit about humanity disasters that all the media is talking about , they are saying that to gain support. They do not give a rats ass about any of them like they hadn't before sept . 11th. Those people had been living like so for 30 years almost, why all of a sudden our governments feel pasionate twards them."

This above is just untrue. We have been sending food aid to afghanistan for years in spite of thier represive regime because we DO care about the people of the world. In fact the us send more food and money to foriegn countries to feed and help people than ALL OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD COMBINED.

Simon said (no pun intended)
"If the US doesn't stop its "BOmbing" campaign , not the commonds (commandos? Don't worry my spelling goes haywire too sometimes. I think that's what you meant though?), soon before this Ramadan month of muslims, if our enemy was 50,000+ people its going to rise to 500 million +"

This is exactlly the same warning we were given during the Gulf war. It didn't happen. And it doesn't matter anyways. If 500 million muslims decide to be our enemy then they will get what they want. (they don't really want this though trust me) It's funny how while the el quieda really DOES have the destruction of christians, jews and other "infidels" as thier goal people are willing to buy their propaganda that WE are at war with islam. We are not. Muslims as always are free to practice thier religion here. There has been a huge campaign on to educate the people of america of this fact. At the same time a huge campaign to teach islamics the opposite is underway. (Not just by el quieda. In the palestinian, saudi arabian and other islamic countries this sort of propaganda is in the childrens schoolbooks. Teaching them that all non muslims are infidels and it's ok to kill them to promote islam even though this is against the koran. There is a lot of propaganda going on but most of it is on the other side. The truth is being hiddend from these people in large part and our country/media IN COMPARISION is wide open.

About the hospital. If it's true it's sad indeed. I heard something about this yesterday but I was under the impression that it was a military hospital? If not it sucks then. But what can you do. Has there ever been a way where mistakes weren't made? Unlike the el quida our main target isn't the civilians. In fact we spend large amounts of money trying to keep this to a minimum.

The sooner the war is over the less people will die on both sides. The military has been rightly told to use whatever force is necessary to get this damn thing done so more people don't have to die. If we were to do like we did in vietnam and try to take the country using soldiers going house to house taking over the country many more people will die. Instead we are destroying thier ability to fight back at all and what effectivness left is being reduced. (Why would we hold back? So we can send soldiers in to die taking a target we can get with a plane?)

Also don't buy the taliban casulty reports. They claim as many as 1000 citizens have been hit. Red cross says civilian casualties so far can be counted on both hands. There will be civilian casulties (I mean beyond the 6000 civilians killed in our country). War is hell and there is no sterile war. We didn't choose this fight it was forced on us. We will now win it using the best methods we can. We still care about civilians though. But it is not our main concern. The main concern is winning this war as quickly as possible with the least casualties (Except of course taliban and el quieda casulties which are the one case where we WANT them to be high)

We are now attacking taliban frontline targets and not bombing as much near the cities. We were bombing out their communicatins and power infrastructures so they cannot organize as well against us. Also we were taking out Anti aircraft and artilery weapons so we can both protect our planes and troops for missions to come. If they are near the cities then they still need to be taken out. We are not going to allow these things to escape destruction just because they hide them in or near thier cities. This will only lead to a longer war and more casualties. They have to and have been taken out.

The bombing faze is much less now. The next faze is ground forces as you know. They are now on the ground conducting opperations. We will do things in the best way we can. Don't expect it to be perfect but we will do the best we can.

Again. The USA is NOT the problem here.
When this is all done we will rebuild afghanistan (I wonder if el quida had plans to rebuild america if they managed to win?)
Afghanistan will be better off after this whole thing is over. We learned a hard lesson here that we cannot just turn away when this is done. Lesson learned. Northern alliance won't be controlling this country either though they will be part of the government. They represent only about 30% of the population and it would be stupid to allow them absolute power.

This is VERY complicated so don't expect everything to be sorted out on the first day. We are still in the military opperations faze and not even NEAR the point of trying to figure out who will be the government of afghanistan. This will most likely be decided AFTER the taliban is toppled and most likely by the UN and not USA. We will however help rebuild afghanistan much like we did in germany and japan after ww2.

If I didn't answer one or more of your questions simon just tell me which one. It tried to answer them all but I might have missed one ;)

You have valid points a lot of the time and these might be valid points your making here too. If the point your making is that this war is really about some pipeline all I can say is "didn't you see what happened on 9/11?) The REAL reason is plain as day. It has nothing to do with a pipeline.

[sonicpuke]

BTW simon ICQ is fucking up on me lately. I tried to reply to your message but ICQ not allowing me to connect (Been noticing this a lot last few days) When I get back on (I'm sure it will come back later today) I'll message you back ;)

sonic
24513624 http://www.pornaddictions.com/ http://www.realtgp.com/real.html
My email is in my profile. I don't post it anymore because I worry about spiders that suck emails out of webpages and spams me ;( I get enough spam already.

[Simon]

BAD_Dog,
Your a moron period.
i didn't even read your responce because its most likely stupid as always.

Take a vote for yourself. Your talking from an american point of view... im talking from world wide point of view. Big diffrence.

[Simon]

Sonic man... hehehe
screw the el-queda.. I am not defending them or the taliban as far as the bombings go..

Just keep it out of the civial areas is what im saying.

It doesn't matter if US is targeting civilians or not the fact of the matter is
they ARE killing them.

So far 1000 dead.
And by the time this is over probebly 10x that.

There is nothing in the world you can say to defend that. US troops are so elite and etc. satalites etc.. etc..

How in the hell have they not managed to capture one guy from afganistan in the past 5 years?

We are talking about the same country that has the technology to study Microscopic rocks in Mars for crying out loud.

Bombing is not the answer. I say it, the world says it and americans are begining to say it themselves except some ignorant idiots like Bad_Dog for example and there is no changing that.

[Simon]

For the last time, for those of you who still dont seem to have understood my point.


I AM not defending taliban or bin laden or the elqueda etc.. etc.

I am defending the innocent people that are dying. The 100000s that had to flee their homes just in the past 3 weeks from their homes because of the US bombings.

In the winter these people are going to starve to death or from the cold.

And there isn't anything US can do about it if they keep on bombing.

Its got to stop and that is how it is.

[Simon]

I dont see how we got into this discussion again anyways.

All I was asking, Which i "STILL" dont have an answer for is ...

SOMEBODY explain that letter. :)

And yes it is real.... its all over the news papers world wide. Obviously you wont see this in the American news papers.

[Simon]

sorry, last post here.
Except the alqueda speeches,

when someone is reffering to America in politics , They are pointing at the government not the citizens.

[ProgGod]

If its in the news, it must be true :

[sonicpuke]

Yeah the world wide press quoting the taliban says 1000 civilians dead.

Red cross says they can be counted on 2 hands (Read 10 or less)

In fact I have seen the claims of thousands of civilians dead in US papers. It's the taliban and other countries which censor the press. Here we get the entire story including the taliban propaganda.

Why are you so ready to believe the taliban claims but everything the US says seems to be nothing but lies?

[rhizome]

Originally posted by sonicpuke:
<STRONG>Yeah the world wide press quoting the taliban says 1000 civilians dead.

Red cross says they can be counted on 2 hands (Read 10 or less)

</STRONG>

You're only talking about deaths as a direct result of the bombings. But what about deaths from starvation? Oxfam and other relief organizations were feeding 3.7 million people in Afghanistan before September 11th. The U.S. right now is only supplying food for 130,000. By winter, the death toll could easily reach a million people - and these are people who would not have died if the relief agencies were able to stay in the country and do their job. Face it, this is a humanitarian catastrophe and it is unanimously held by all relief agencies including American ones that the humanitarian aid provided currently by the U.S. is completely insufficient. This is even more horrendous considering that these are people who do NOT support the Taliban, do NOT support terrorist networks, and are in no way affiliated with any of the attacks on September 11th. Hell, none of the hijackers were even from Afghanistan! How can anyone say that the Afghan people will be better off when all is said and done when a great number of them will not even see that day - if it ever does come. The Afghan people did not ask for this bombing; they did not ask for humanitarian aid to be reduced by 95%; and they sure didn't ask for the Northern Alliance march towards the capital!

Are a million lives really necessary to ease grief? This should not be about revenge or satiating a savage desire to dance in the streets at the expense of innocent civilians. Would not a proud and good American stand up and implore his/her leaders to fight the terrorists without causing unnecessary deaths. And even if this means a more drawn out process, it would be worth it because we would have saved the lives of many people and given them the opportunity to enjoy a brighter future. Since when is it anti-American to show compassion while spreading the ideals of freedom and democracy? Or maybe bad_dog is right and being American is no different than being a Taliban supporter - maybe being American really is about dancing for joy when seeing images of innocents starve in the face of bombs?

[sonicpuke]

rhizome
you make a couple valid points though I think you are wrong about the end results.

Let me tell you what I mean

1st your valid points.
Relief has been reduced since the bombing began ;(
This IS on the verge of becoming possibly the biggest humanitarian disaster ever.

I have to make a couple points about this though.

#1 The taliban started arresting UN relief workers for supposedly trying to convert muslims to christianity even before the bombing began. Do they not share the responsibility for starving people because of this? The UN had no choice but to start removing aid workers or they face arrest. And for what? For supposedly preaching christianity or for trying to feed the starving people that the taliban doesn't give a crap about. Instead of building an economy and future for afghanistan they have done things to hurt afghanistan. For one obvious thing they made laws that reduced women to the status of non people. This not only means that people(women) who could be growing food, working to help the economy, working in hospitals etc etc etc either hide in thier house or if they are smart get out of the country. The taliban helped cause this crisis in many different ways. I have seen nothing they have done to help this. We on the other hand have been trying to prevent this catastrophe for YEARS now. The US sends more food and monetary aid to afghanistan each years than all other countries combined IN SPITE of thier poor human rights.

#2 you are counting people as dead who are not yet dead. People who complain that we should stop bombing are not realizing that we should bomb as much as it will help to speed up the end of this war. Not just to reduce loss of life to us soldiers either. They sooner this is over the sooner food aid can be delivered to those starving people AND IT WILL. These people are not dead yet and not only will the us do everything we can to feed them but on the other side of the coin the taliban will do nothing but try and prolong this as long as possible while arresting the aid workers trying to do the feeding. (BTW most of these aid workers are hardcore liberals who are AGAINST this whole war. But to the taliban they have to be arrested for possessing christian materials?)

Also I for one am not dancing in the streets. I like most american people wish this had never happened. I actually feel very somber about what is now happening. I wish/hope the taliban will give up soon. When this is all done we will rebuild afghanistan and in the meantime we will if possible feed the starving masses. I wonder if they would do the same for us? Or would they rather kill us?

SO to recap

#1 the humanitarian disaster is not fault of United states. IN fact we are and will try and prevent it.
#2 It IS the fault of the taliban an el quieda who care about nothing but forcing their religous beliefs on the rest of the world. Are they massing to feed those people? Hell no. They want them to die so they can blame it on the US. If they REALLY cared they could end this all even now.

[pornsuite]

"simon" I guess thats your name, aren't you canadian? what the fuck you care about this?

[Simon]

pornsuite :
1) If it says simon for my name then Simon would be my name =).

2) I am a damn proud canadian yes.

3) I care because i am human. I care because this is effecting my country which had nothing to do with this mess in the first place. I care because US bullys us around as well, its BS. In fishery, forestery etc.
I care because I canot stand some of those Ignorant idiots (bad_dog) for example , sitting at home on their ass , watching their tv, eating their stake with mash potatoes and yet making rediciolus comments about how afghan people brought this war on their own. They brought nothing. It was the terrorists which the US obviously can't handle or else Bin Laden would have been dead by now. And over all there is Civilians which have a rough life as is , fleeing from their homes because of the bombings.


That would be why i care, If that makes me a bad person for caring so be it.

[Simon]

By my country, I mean Canada .

The US Government is now blaming us for harboring terrorists to a point.. hahahah I laugh at it.

They are making us restrict immigration laws against people from middle east.

[pornsuite]

who's bad_dog?

[rhizome]

Originally posted by pornsuite:
<STRONG>who's bad_dog?</STRONG>

You can learn all about him here: http://www.baddogthumbs.com

[Unknown]

Originally posted by rhizome:
<STRONG>

You can learn all about him here: http://www.baddogthumbs.com</STRONG>

LOL!

[baddog]

rhizome,
why not publish my true blacklist you faggot?

to save you the trouble, I will, and thank you for providing the opportunity:

hypo -
timur - http://thepornolinks.com
aw-tolik - http://www.x-secret.com
taimaster - http://jackoff.com
Total Newbie
tolik
Webmaster@XTeens.net
simon -http://www.interaid.com
rhizome - http://www.cockballs.com
unknown
milan,
william,
muchos,

I forget anyone? for those that do not know, these are assholes that laugh and rejoice about the attack on the WTC, these are assholes that have nothing but negative things to say about the USA. These are assholes that think we deserved to be attacked. These are assholes that still expect us to do business with them, because as much as the hate the people of the USA, they sure the hell love our money!!

[c61077]

Guys you guys are forgetting the basic element here. 5000+ People lost their life on September 11 2001 by an act of corwardly crap. That is not acceptable. Those responsible MUST be brought to justice at all cost. ALL COST.

All you US haters out there. Do me 2 favors:

1. Name a country that has a foreign policy that's NOT in it's best interest. The US has to do what it has to do to protect itself from these corwards, if that means ridding the world of them so be it.

2. Fly out to NYC to understand and digest the magnitude of the death and distruction cause by the attacks. When you have done then you may talk. You people amaze me.

If you haters had lost a brother/son/wife/sister/mother/father etc on 11/11 I am sure you will not be talking the nonsense I see here.

PEACE - I HOPE THE COMMANDOS KICK ASSSSSS!

CJM - No Flames Either...

[Simon]

Bad dog, shove that list up your ass.
We are talking politics here. People have diffrent openions and everyone has the right to speak.

I am not an anti-american. I have over 15 family members living in Brooklyn New York.

I say the things "I Believe" that are wrong with how the american government handles things and I have all the rights to do so .

[Simon]

My heart goes out to every family that lost family members in New York. I donated $300 dollars to Red Cross foundation last week .. That is more than an average american has done.


Yes send commondos to capture the Taliban and Terrorists.
DONT BOMB AWAY the god damn people.


Bad_Dog, what part of that can you not understand?

[baddog]

Originally posted by Simon:
<STRONG>Bad dog, shove that list up your ass.
. . . I say the things "I Believe" that are wrong with how the american government handles things and I have all the rights to do so .</STRONG>

Well gee, Simon, I was under the impression that you did not read my posts. You are right about one thing, you have the right to say what you will about anything you want, and I will defend your right to do so. However, so do I, and I also have the right to not do business with you, or people like you.

How about you give us your idea of what we should do since you are so damn smart. We have no choice, we have to rid the world of the Taliban, Bin Ladden, et al. I personally feel we need to rid the Internet of businesses run by people like you too. The way I see it, you are either with us, or against us, and if you are against us, you sure do not need our support or our money. So until you can say something constructive to say, keep your pie-hole shut. Or at least do not get upset when people point out how ignorant you are.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Simon:
<STRONG>
Yes send commondos to capture the Taliban and Terrorists.
DONT BOMB AWAY the god damn people.

</STRONG>

We will send in special forces troops, and have, but we will do it when it is safe. We are not into suicide like those brainwashed by the Taliban.

You are so fucking ignorant if you believe the Taliban and the casualties they report. So what if a hospital on a military base gets hit? BFD. We are supposed to think there are civilians in a military hospital? Yeah, I believe that.

I would think that you would be happy for any Afghans that are inadvertantly killed (Afghans are not are targets, for the record), after all through death they get to meet their maker, and that is their end goal, is it not? Sure have to beat living under the rule of the Taliban.

[rhizome]

Originally posted by bad_dog:
<STRONG>

Well gee, Simon, I was under the impression that you did not read my posts. You are right about one thing, you have the right to say what you will about anything you want, and I will defend your right to do so. However, so do I, and I also have the right to not do business with you, or people like you.

How about you give us your idea of what we should do since you are so damn smart. We have no choice, we have to rid the world of the Taliban, Bin Ladden, et al. I personally feel we need to rid the Internet of businesses run by people like you too. The way I see it, you are either with us, or against us, and if you are against us, you sure do not need our support or our money. So until you can say something constructive to say, keep your pie-hole shut. Or at least do not get upset when people point out how ignorant you are.</STRONG>

Bad_dog, are you fucking blind? Simon just said he's all in favor of sending commandos in to capture the Taliban and bin-Ladin. If this isn't good enough for you - i.e. if anything short of bombing the shit out of Afghanistan so you can dance in the streets singing is unacceptable to you, then go ahead and create a black list. BUT FOR FUCKS SAKE CALL IT FOR WHAT IT REALLY IS! Most of those on your blacklist disagree with the bombings, yes. Most of those on the list are in favor of more tactical approaches that will result in fewer lives being lost. And most importantly, most of those do NOT believe that the loss of innocent lives is worth celebrating. So why not redefine your blacklist? Something like, well, hey I guess you've already redefined the list! Check it out at http://www.baddogthumbs.com

[Unknown]

BadDog, you say outright that Afghans/muslims are better off dead because they believe they will go to heaven anyway.

Who's ignorant? Listen to yourself.

[Simon]

leave it be.
Unless there really is a ww3 and the guy gets a taste of bombing of some sort , he wont understand.

Bad dog, there is no anti-americans here. At least not me.

I dont agree with the bombings. simple as that and im here saying it out loud. And I do participate in the anti - bombing demonstrations here in vancouver.

Should I be shot because of this?
I for one dont think so.

[sonicpuke]

Dang did this turn into jihad or something?

First off lets not call names ok?

I don't think simon is anti-american myself just a bit misguided. He has a right to his opinions even if he is wrong. You also have a right to say whatever you want back. You also have the right to do whatever you want. However the american way is to respect minority oppinions. About 10% of americans feel the same way simon does. They may be wrong but they have the right. The taliban is the one who would try and suppress minority oppinions. Let not follow thier example.

I think what your not taking into account is this simon. Your message title questions whether the bombing are even because of terrorism. It's kind of a provocative idea right now and people get proved as a result.

The problem with your idea about sending commandos in instead of bombing is this. Your not a military man and don't know the capabities of commandos, bombers etc etc etc. How can YOU really say what way will cause the least casualties on either side. America is a compasionate country whether you think that is just propaganda or not. The military people have been told to use the most efficient means to win this war with the least amount of casualties. That is what they are now doing. In Vietnam we did what your suggesting and started trying to take over the country hut by hut using ground forces and holding back large parts of our military power. This only led to a prolonged war.

Bombing puts the fear of god into people and destroys thier resolve. You can imagine what the mental trauma of being bombed day after day and having no way to strike back must be like. This destroys the will to fight. In Iraq after weeks of bombing when the troops finally went in the iraqi's surrenders in droves. Thousands of lives were saved because they knew we weren't playing and that there was no way to win.

If we go in a vietnam style commando war here expect years of small arms combat as we try and take over the country house by house. We aren't going to do that though. Vietnam was a lesson hard learned. If we finally decide that war is the only option go into it to win using the best forces available. You don't go around killing civilians but you don't hold ANY available option back because civilians might die. Just fight it and win as quickly as possible. Aviod civilian casulties of course. But don't take a weapon away from our military because of accidental casualties.

[baddog]

Number one, I did not say anyone is better off dead, but it seems to be the goal of these terrorists, at least that is what they are told before they go on their suicide missions. Die killing the infidels and go straight to Allah. If this is what they want, line them up instead of hiding in caves.

I am also not trying to tell someone to not speak their minds, I in fact support your right to do so, however, I also have the right to suggest to people that they not do business with people that are so very obvious anti-American. They always tone down their comments when someone calls them on it. but there is no question that they are anti-American. I would however be the last to try and stop their right to expression, but do expect people to jump in their face.

As sonic said, we are not going to do Vietnam tactics again. Most of you were probably not even alive during that fiasco, I was. I had it hanging over my head all throughout high school, knowing that as soon as I graduated, that war was going to be sitting there waiting for me. DS/DS was a thing of beauty compared to what happened in Nam. Trying to fight a war with both hands tied behind our backs. Not bombing north of the DMZ, Cambodia, Thailand, and when we did finally decide to on occasion bomb Hanoi, be careful to not hit the MIGs there, or the SAM sites because some Russian might be there and get hurt. Well, DS/DS showed what happens with a true softening up air campaign. Troops surrendering to lost CNN reporters in the desert.

I am not dancing in the streets at the idea of an Afghan civilian being killed, but the fact is, even if I was, it would be a very short dance. Not that many have been killed, not nearly as many as have been killed on 9/11, and the biggest difference is that the WTC fatalities were the intended victims, not casualties of war.

[baddog]

By the way, I already contacted the host for baddogthumbs.com and I already had done a whois before you changed the info, and Toronto is not that big of a city.

So, have you heard of something called libel? How about the HA? Watch your back, I still have to decide what will bring me more satisfaction, a process server, or knowing that your ass has been kicked.

You have a preference?

[baddog]

In case you think I jest,
the whois on baddogthumbs.com, before you changed it was:

The Organization Name
481 Kingswood Rd.
Toronto, Ontario M4E 3P4
CA
Sponsoring Reseller; for Technical Support
with respect to this domain contact:
000Domains.com, support@000Domains.com
501-708-0009

Administrative Contact:
Collins, Lee schizonomadic@priest.com
481 Kingswood Rd.
Toronto, Ontario M4E 3P4
CA
416-699-2000

See you in court punk, or maybe a hospital, we shall see.

[Unknown]

Originally posted by bad_dog:
<STRONG>In case you think I jest,
the whois on baddogthumbs.com, before you changed it was:

The Organization Name
481 Kingswood Rd.
Toronto, Ontario M4E 3P4
CA
Sponsoring Reseller; for Technical Support
with respect to this domain contact:
000Domains.com, support@000Domains.com
501-708-0009

Administrative Contact:
Collins, Lee schizonomadic@priest.com
481 Kingswood Rd.
Toronto, Ontario M4E 3P4
CA
416-699-2000

See you in court punk, or maybe a hospital, we shall see.</STRONG>

Posting physichal threats are we?

[Zemun]

Originally posted by bad_dog:
<STRONG>Number one, I did not say anyone is better off dead, but it seems to be the goal of these terrorists, at least that is what they are told before they go on their suicide missions. Die killing the infidels and go straight to Allah. If this is what they want, line them up instead of hiding in caves.

I am also not trying to tell someone to not speak their minds, I in fact support your right to do so, however, I also have the right to suggest to people that they not do business with people that are so very obvious anti-American. They always tone down their comments when someone calls them on it. but there is no question that they are anti-American. I would however be the last to try and stop their right to expression, but do expect people to jump in their face.

As sonic said, we are not going to do Vietnam tactics again. Most of you were probably not even alive during that fiasco, I was. I had it hanging over my head all throughout high school, knowing that as soon as I graduated, that war was going to be sitting there waiting for me. DS/DS was a thing of beauty compared to what happened in Nam. Trying to fight a war with both hands tied behind our backs. Not bombing north of the DMZ, Cambodia, Thailand, and when we did finally decide to on occasion bomb Hanoi, be careful to not hit the MIGs there, or the SAM sites because some Russian might be there and get hurt. Well, DS/DS showed what happens with a true softening up air campaign. Troops surrendering to lost CNN reporters in the desert.

I am not dancing in the streets at the idea of an Afghan civilian being killed, but the fact is, even if I was, it would be a very short dance. Not that many have been killed, not nearly as many as have been killed on 9/11, and the biggest difference is that the WTC fatalities were the intended victims, not casualties of war.</STRONG>
Bad dog you are so stupid!!!!!!!!!Innocent victims are the same(no metter if they are Americans,Arabs,Iraq.....)!!!!!And if you think that your planes hit civilians by mistake you are wrong!!!!!They do it becouse they want it to do(pilots who do that are same like pilots which hit in WTC)!!!!They are nothing but criminals!!!!!!!

[baddog]

zemun,

welcome to our newest member of the black list, you are among good company

[Simon]

"Toronto is not that big of a city."

LOL, when was the last time you were in Toronto man ? heh...
and now your getting things out of hand posting physical threats.

[Simon]

That 10% by the way was right after WTC attack. I really doubt its at 90% support right now. Even if it is at 10% thats over 30 million people. Thats a pretty large minority .

World wide, I would be damned, if the support twards US on this campaign is more than 5% in the public.

[c61077]

Zeman are you crazy? You're talking apples and oranges... then again you may not understand that either.

American pilots in Afgan cannot be compared to those assholes that flew into the WTC. So take your head out your ass and understand the dynamics of flyng 2 planes into office buildings.

What should the US do? Bend over and kiss Bin Ladin's hairy ass? Hell No, They'll pay.

If the Taliban had any sense they would have given up the asshole on Sept 11th but they didn't, they choose to call a 'holy war' and we obliged them. So bombs are dropping and they are dying all of a sudden the US is bad? Nonsense.

How many Afgans died at the hands of the Taliban? Answer that! How many women they beat? Answer that. Stop pretending these people are angels....

Again, I hope the commandos KICK ASS!

Peace....

[baddog]

Simon,

Compared to LA, it is not shit, and gets a whole lot smaller with an address. Should I post a map to the address showing just how small it really is?

A process server will have no problem at all, and that is not a physical threat, that is reality. As far as any physical threat goes, hey accidents happen. Read the story behind the St Valentine Day Massacre.

They could have sworn Al Capone was behind it, but just so happens he was in a DA's office in Florida.

Besides, just like the Taliban could prevent harm coming to the citizens of Afghanistan, Lee Collins can do the same for themself.

In case you have not figured it out yet, I do not play no fucking games! Try doing a whois on baddogthumbs.com now. Unfortunately for prohosters, a tracert still shows everything I need for a successful lawsuit.

[Simon]

Well the thing with handing over bin laden,
Im not defending it , but the US never did show any proofs to the Taliban which they wanted to see before handing him over.

Maybe thats why ?
i dont know honestly..

[baddog]

Originally posted by Simon:
<STRONG>Well the thing with handing over bin laden,
Im not defending it , but the US never did show any proofs to the Taliban which they wanted to see before handing him over.

</STRONG>

Well, yes they did, and Britian did, and the Taliban said oh well, too bad we are not doing it anyway.

Hell, China, PLO leader Sadat, Cuba, Syria, to name a few of those that surprise me the most, support us, and believe Bin Laden is behind the attacks, and there was something about the video that bin Laden released recently where he practically came out and said he did it, that pretty much convinced the world.

Stop being so blind to the facts, you can seem like a relatively intelligent individual, but sometimes your ignorance and obvious disdain for the USA gets in the way.

We do not care if people do not like all of our policies, we do not like all of our policies, but at least open your eyes to reality.

The Taliban said they had custody of bin Laden, then after releasing his video where he admitted to being behind the attacks, they released him to carry on his jihad, and that is exactly what they said.

[baddog]

damn I wish there was an edit feature that worked here,

PLO leader is not Sadat (seeing as how he is a dead Egyptian leader), as everyone knows. Yasir Arafat is and he too condemns the attack and bin Laden

[rhizome]

Originally posted by bad_dog:
<STRONG>I forget anyone? for those that do not know, these are assholes that laugh and rejoice about the attack on the WTC, these are assholes that have nothing but negative things to say about the USA. These are assholes that think we deserved to be attacked. These are assholes that still expect us to do business with them, because as much as the hate the people of the USA, they sure the hell love our money!! </STRONG>

Stop playing your stupid games bad_dog. You know you can't prove the abouve statement so maybe I should contact my lawyer and initiate a little libel action? You're full of shit and always have been. This all started because you're old and senile and forgot how to read. If you knew how to read and could think just the slightest bit, then you would have realized that your above quote is absolutely absurd and obviously false. Like a said before, create a blacklist BUT call it for what it is!

[Zemun]

Originally posted by bad_dog:
<STRONG>

Well, yes they did, and Britian did, and the Taliban said oh well, too bad we are not doing it anyway.

Hell, China, PLO leader Sadat, Cuba, Syria, to name a few of those that surprise me the most, support us, and believe Bin Laden is behind the attacks, and there was something about the video that bin Laden released recently where he practically came out and said he did it, that pretty much convinced the world.

Stop being so blind to the facts, you can seem like a relatively intelligent individual, but sometimes your ignorance and obvious disdain for the USA gets in the way.

We do not care if people do not like all of our policies, we do not like all of our policies, but at least open your eyes to reality.

The Taliban said they had custody of bin Laden, then after releasing his video where he admitted to being behind the attacks, they released him to carry on his jihad, and that is exactly what they said.</STRONG>
You make me laugh bad pussy!!!!There is not one evidence that links Bin Laden with WTC(if there are evidence why dont you give them to Talibans and dont risk lifes of your marines,pilots,citizens....?????)!!!As I know only evidence you have is bag of one of the terrorist which didnt get in the plane(please tell me what is possibility something like that to heppen)???Or another one bag you "found" after plane crash in WTC(what is possibility something like this to heppen?????)!!!!I didnt watch video where Bin Laden admit that he has something with attacks but even if it was something like that do you know Arabian language(I guess he was talking Arabic)????Maybe CNN(or whoever) translate what you want to hear!!!!!
Dont get me wrong I dont defend Bin Laden!!!!I just show you the facts!!!!!!And after all USA supports Talibans and created Bin Laden!!!He was hero for you when he fights against Russians,Serbians,Afganistans....and now he is the biggest terrorist in the world???????????Shit man!!!!!!Think with your own head!!!Its all about MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[baddog]

Rhizome

I can not prove what?

how about a quote from our newest addition to the boycott list, Zemun, who so eloquently said:
"I hope american bastards will return home from Afgan in black plastic bags for garbage becouse they dont deserve anything better!!!!"

I am not saying that everyone one the list did everything listed, but they including yourself falls into one of the categories, specifically "have nothing but negative things to say about the USA"

I have quotes for everyone on the list, I do not play games, I make sure I can back up my allegations.

You want to get an attorney? Knock yourself out, besides you are going to need one anyway, so perhaps he can give a a discount rate for filing any counter-suit you think you are bad enough to file. See you in LA.

[sonicpuke]

zemun get your facts straight.

Bin laden has been connectected with many terrorist activities including the embassy bombings in africa and the USS cole attack. The taliban has known for years that he was using thier country as a base for attacking america for years and were supplied with AMPLE proof. No proof would be good enough for them though. They only want to stall things off. They should have turned him over years ago but they didn't because they support him and the money he gives them.

You are showing no one facts. You have no information about bin laden or the wtc attack so don't act like you have some monopoly on the true information here.

He is a terrorist and taliban supports this. Period. Now they both go down. Don't cry in your beer that innocent civilians are killed because you obviously want to protect terror and not citizens just like the taliban.

[baddog]

Rhizome,

By the way, thank you for being smart enough to down your site

[rhizome]

Originally posted by bad_dog:
<STRONG>Rhizome

I am not saying that everyone one the list did everything listed, but they including yourself falls into one of the categories, specifically "have nothing but negative things to say about the USA"
</STRONG>

Getting a little defensive now, aren't we? Well at least we're now getting closer to the truth. But still not quite there. You want to know how all this started? When you came up with the brilliant idea of a blacklist that had my name on it, I politely contacted you asking why I was on this list and made mention of the fact that none of my comments in any way were in support of the Sept. 11th attacks. You gave a one line response: "I beg to differ." So bring it on! Where are these mysterious quotations? How come whenever I question you about this you only cite losers like Zenum as if people who think critically are from the same mold as right-wing apologists? You're full of shit bad_dog and the sad thing is you don't even know it.

[baddog]

you will have to refresh my memory of this conversation we had, I thought you just got added to the boycott list yesterday

[Zemun]

Originally posted by sonicpuke:
<STRONG>zemun get your facts straight.

Bin laden has been connectected with many terrorist activities including the embassy bombings in africa and the USS cole attack. The taliban has known for years that he was using thier country as a base for attacking america for years and were supplied with AMPLE proof. No proof would be good enough for them though. They only want to stall things off. They should have turned him over years ago but they didn't because they support him and the money he gives them.

You are showing no one facts. You have no information about bin laden or the wtc attack so don't act like you have some monopoly on the true information here.

He is a terrorist and taliban supports this. Period. Now they both go down. Don't cry in your beer that innocent civilians are killed because you obviously want to protect terror and not citizens just like the taliban.</STRONG>
Sonic get a fact:
IF USA HAVE PROOFS AGAINST BIN LADEN WHY THEY DONT FAX IT TALIBANS????????
I think its much cheaper then send pilots,land troops,chopters there,dont you?I think its ok proposition that talibans send to usa:They will give Bin Laden to some independend country if usa sends proof against him!!!Only question is:
Do usa have proofs or not???!!!Nobody is guilty before you dont proof something else,isnt it?!
And for bad pussy:
I dont give a shit about your blacklists!!!You can only hate me, nothing else!!!!!!!

[baddog]

Zemun, your ignorance is overwhelming, so go back to fucking your sister, and sucking your brothers cock, then your whole family will be happy.

I do not hate anyone, umlike yourself, and I appreciate your candor, as it makes it easier to justify your presence on the boycott list. thank you.

[sonicpuke]

Umm Zemun didn't you read my last post?

The taliban has been shown proof in both the embasy bombings in africa and the bombing of the USS cole YEARS ago. They do not consider this proof enough. They allowed bin laden to continue his actions against the US even though they KNEW what he was doing and saw the proof. We have been trying for YEARS to convince them but they refuse to be convinced.

Also in bin ladens message to al jazerra TV he warned all moslems to stay out of airplanes and tall buildings.

1 day before the WTC was bombed bin ladens MOTHER left saudi arabia and went into hiding after recieving a message from him.

There is additional proof in phone calls made between el quieda operative warning of something "big" right before 9/11

All of the people involved with the WTC have links to the el quieda organization and many actually spent time in afghanistan and some actually can be traced back to el quieda training camps.

Beyond proof of el quieda involvment in the WTC attack there is proof again and again that bin laden runs a terrorist organization that has been responsible for MANY terrorist acts around the world. The taliban has been suplied proof of this again and again but not only refused to turn him over but actually supports his efforts. We talked and talked with the taliban for YEARS now not only about this but about thier abuse of women and minorities in thier country. The have made it plain that they have no intention to either turn over known terrorists or respect human rights. They have dragged thier feet for YEARS and as one of the results the WTC attack happened. After that the time for negotiations are over. You either come into compliance with civilized norms of decency and law accepted worldwide or we will take matters into our own hands and destroy your terrorist regime. The time has come for regimes that support or even allow terrorism to be unempowered to be toppled. If your government supports the killing of innocent civilians to advance a religous or political cause then expect it to be next.

Proof has been given again and again. The time for giving proof and expecting the taliban to care is over. They don't care about proof. Asking for it NOW is just another tactic for them to stall off. They have had all the proof needed for years now.

Why is it that you are able to pick up inconsistencies in the american posistion SO easily but you can't see that this question of "proof" is nothing but propaganda from the taliban?

If you knew the slightest thing about it you'd know we've been sending them not only food but PROOF for years. They don't care. They think we are the GREAT DEVIL. Many afghani's probabbly don't feel this way. But it's clear that both el quieda and taliban DO and back it up with action and support for this cause.

[Simon]

Weapons are made to be sold. If there are no wars, they wont be sold. There for that is the reason there is at least a war or two every decade. That is a fact and argue it all you want.

And pratically all involving US one way or the other.

The world is not going to tolerate this shit.

[Simon]

for every war , there is a excuse.

WHere was US when the government in Cambodia killing over 450,000 people?

Where is US now , in the Sudan war?

We dont even hear about them because helping these people is in no way benefitial to any of us so basically our governments are saying fuck it.

The SUDAN government is buying the weapons that north american oil companies are paying the money to dig for oil in their soil. And they are killing 1000s of people with this money. Yes you could say its not up to us what they do with their money but it is.

[Simon]

WHere was US when the government in Cambodia killing over 450,000 people?

Where was US when the government of Cambodia was killing over 450,000 people.
that is what I meant. :p :p

[sonicpuke]

Well you can't have it both ways. Should we intervene around the world or not?

Should we have invaded cambodia as well as vietnam? Besides this was years ago. (Even I was only a small child when this happened) Things are much different now and if we want to go back 50 years or so almost any country can be accused of treachery.

As far as the sudan. I heard sec Powell say in congress today that just recently when they sudanese started bombing again we stepped in and told them to stop it or we would reverse the sanctions we recently lifted on them. The sudanese government is sort of the model for what the taliban should have done but didn't. They are allowing us inspectors in thier country to make sure that known terrorist camps in that country are being destroyed. Sudan has a long way to go but they are at least starting down the path of rooting out terrorism instead of propogating it. They will be expected to do even more including respecting human rights. If they do they will be rewarded by being allow to be part of international trade and community at large. They seem to be doing this so far but never fear Sec Powell said that words are not good enough and only action to stop the terrorist will count for anything.

If they take away guns people will use knives simon. True evil will always find a way. In rwanda almost 1/2 million people were killed in just a few days mostly using machettes. On 9/11 they found a way to take our own airplanes and turn THEM into weapons. Weaponse can not be truly eliminated if such things as planes and machettes can be implements of genocide or mass destruction. That's not the solution unfortunatly. True evil will just kill peaceful resistance. Someone like hitler would have LOVED peacful resistance. He would have herded thier peacful asses into a gas chamber and killed them without a second thought or twinge of concience. I suspect osmama would do the same thing given half a chance.

[Simon]

Yea I bet he would too. :(

[baddog]

sonic,

I want to thank you for responding to these two morons. I have lived through the bullshit of VietNam, and the suggestion that we should have stepped in and done something about Cambodia about floored me.

As I have said before, we are damned if we do, and damned if we do not. I get tired of the relentless bullshit that spews from the likes of Simon et al. You state what I have stated too often to bother saying again, and I know I should just ignore these fools, but the anger they generate is such that I feel the need to respond.

However, I realize that calmer heads shall prevail, so instead of continuing in it, I will continue to take notes, and make my list of those that I refuse to do any business with, and when people ask me for a copy of the list, I will continue to pass it along.

To be sure, people do ask me for this list via e-mail, and there are even some on it that have unknowingly contacted me trying to get onto programs we have available to webmasters, but naturally, they are denied because I will never assist their being able to prosper with American dollars.

When my son has to go kill the Taliban it will be me that will be me pulling the trigger each and every time

[Zemun]

Hey bad pussy is this your site: http://www.mogulresources.com/ ?
if it is you have really good design(but only problem is that this is not your design and that you cut off copyrights from it and publish it like your!!!!)
Great job man!!!!Continue good work,thief!!!!!!!!!!

[baddog]

so, who did we steal the design from?

[Unknown]

Doesn't suprise me, really.

[baddog]

oh yeah? would surprise the hell out of me, so who did we steal the design from?

talk is cheap, libel is not

[Unknown]

So you are denying it? Yes or no?

[Zemun]

You steal it from: http://www.phpnuke.org/
Maybe you can remember now?????

[baddog]

well number 1, I do not design any sites, so I asked my associate about it, these are his exact comments,
"It is phpnuke, everyone knows that. Go to phpnuke.org but who cares. The site is not even active, mogul resources was never finished. On the bottom there is supposed to be a 'special' notice about the great phpnuke scripting and more. Have not got that far yet as the site was never activated."

So yes, he used a format that is allowed by phpnuke, but as he said, the site is not active, and never was completed. I think you will notice that all of his efforts in building the site started and ended in July.

So we are not stealing anything. I personally know shit about .php (still trying to figure it out) and have never heard of phpnuke until just a couple minutes ago

I can assure you that should we decide to go forward with that site, they will get their tag as required. You associated with them or something? If not, well you know what you can do, if are, contact support@mogulnetworks.com and bring up your issue there. Not my area of responsibility.

[Unknown]

Originally posted by Zemun:
<STRONG>You steal it from: http://www.phpnuke.org/
Maybe you can remember now?????</STRONG>

You should have waited with posting that, I wanted him to 100% deny it first so people really can see how much they can trust him.

[baddog]

unknown,

know what? fuck you and the horse you rode in on. You trying to accuse me of being dishonest? well fuck you punk, now you have crossed the line, and I will respond however I feel appropriate.

I challenge you to find anyone that can say I have ever cheated or lied to them, or stolen from them, because those are things I do not do. Unlike you, I do not hide who I am, anyone and everyone has easy access to me.

SO FUCK OFF AND DIE YOU COCK SUCKING PRICK!!
that is all, and no, I will not bother responding to anything you have to say, unless it is an apology, you piece of shit anti-American.

I have a friend in Canada that told me that her local post office was shut down yesterday due to an Anthrax scare. I hope that if there was some anthrax there it ended up on the mail of you and your family, you piece of crap.

oh yeah, did I mention, FUCK OFF AND DIE!

[rhizome]

Originally posted by bad_dog:
<STRONG>unknown,

know what? fuck you and the horse you rode in on. You trying to accuse me of being dishonest? well fuck you punk, now you have crossed the line, and I will respond however I feel appropriate.

I challenge you to find anyone that can say I have ever cheated or lied to them, or stolen from them, because those are things I do not do. Unlike you, I do not hide who I am, anyone and everyone has easy access to me.

SO FUCK OFF AND DIE YOU COCK SUCKING PRICK!!
that is all, and no, I will not bother responding to anything you have to say, unless it is an apology, you piece of shit anti-American.

I have a friend in Canada that told me that her local post office was shut down yesterday due to an Anthrax scare. I hope that if there was some anthrax there it ended up on the mail of you and your family, you piece of crap.

oh yeah, did I mention, FUCK OFF AND DIE!</STRONG>

LOL, that kind of anger surely can't be healthy for a man of your age.

[Unknown]

Originally posted by rhizome:
<STRONG>

LOL, that kind of anger surely can't be healthy for a man of your age.</STRONG>

Indeed indeed. It's funny though. lol